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Author Topic: High school photography teacher needs a printer.  (Read 10400 times)

mziegler

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2013, 02:33:47 pm »

Another question: do I want the standard or designer version?
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Bullfrog

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2013, 02:34:18 pm »

So far the information has been quite useful. Thanks!

I am convinced that I need a pro series Epson, especially considering the operating cost. Budgets mean everything in a school setting.

When I look at print speeds, suddenly the 4900 looks like the way to go. I will be printing up to 70 at a time, and time is an important consideration. Even more attractive is that replacements cartridges are 200ml.

Two additional inks, however, will increase the price per photo, right?

I own a Canon Image prograf 6100 which is btw, very inexpensive ink wise and very reliable to infrequent use but I didn't recommend it because it is 24" wide and I assumed you want to stay smaller.

Anyway, I've been researching Epson as a second printer to complement my needs (specifically b/w)and the 3880 stands out as exceptional workhorse with great quality without the problems of some of the other models

Point:  the 4900 may be a beast if you don't print weekly and nozzle clogs will really slow down production.  I would search the forum first for threads on the 4900 to see - accepting people only usually post if they have a problem but still, you can get a sense of what the strengths and weaknesses  are.

Regarding 70 at a time, if you have a roll - and are printing 8x10 - you can print 2 across and just let them roll off - of course, you now need a cutter but I assume schools have lots of those kicking around.
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hugowolf

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2013, 04:13:46 pm »

I am convinced that I need a pro series Epson, especially considering the operating cost. Budgets mean everything in a school setting.

When I look at print speeds, suddenly the 4900 looks like the way to go. I will be printing up to 70 at a time, and time is an important consideration. Even more attractive is that replacements cartridges are 200ml.

I would not recomend the 4900, unless you are printing a least every two or three days every week of the year. The clogging problems are well known for this an other Epson x900 printers.

Two additional inks, however, will increase the price per photo, right?

No, no more ink goes down, just different mixes of the same quantity.

Another question: do I want the standard or designer version?

The standard version is what you want, and that goes for the 3880 too.

Brian A
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2013, 06:42:01 pm »

When I look at print speeds, suddenly the 4900 looks like the way to go. I will be printing up to 70 at a time, and time is an important consideration. Even more attractive is that replacements cartridges are 200ml.

Two additional inks, however, will increase the price per photo, right?
It basically takes just so much ink to cover a given area on a print.  More colors just means less of another color is used.  The ink usage probably won't change enough to notice.  (The two extra inks rarely get used.)

I don't know what current ink prices are, but expect the comparison will not be much different from a year or two ago.  Last time I did a cost comparison the 3880 80ml carts were $0.75/ml, the 4880 110ml carts were $0.64/ml, the 4900 200ml carts were $0.50, the 7890 350ml carts were $0.46 and the 7890 700ml carts were $0.40/ml.

As you can see, very clearly the larger the cartridge the lower the operating cost, but the difference between the 4900 220ml carts and even the 700ml carts is not that huge.  At 1000 8x10's a year it works out to less than $100 difference in ink costs in a year.

The print speed is greater with the 7980.  Epson says the average 16x20 takes 3:47 for the 7890 and 4:11  with the 4900.  Again, not a huge difference (printing 70 8x10's 4 at a time would take 8 minutes longer on the 4900).

My experience is that I need both a 4880 and  a larger printer too.  I use the 4880 for all standard printing services (letters. brochures, flyers, etc) that require sheet feeding and never use roll paper with it.  The 7890 is used for almost all photographs.  My only reason for not having a 9890 is space, because I am positive that would be even better than the 7890.  It is very hard to realize how nice it is to be able to make large prints! 
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2013, 07:07:41 pm »

I would not recomend the 4900, unless you are printing a least every two or three days every week of the year. The clogging problems are well known for this an other Epson x900 printers.

It just isn't really a problem though.  And that would be particularly true for what appears to be the environment the OP will be operating in.

At the start of each day, print a "Nozzle Check".  If it isn't perfect, run a Nozzle Clean routine.  Simple as that.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to just start every day with a cleaning routine either, needed or not, and particularly so on Monday mornings.

When these printeres are unused for a long period (several months or a year or more) it is possible to get a clog that takes more than one or two stabs at the cleaning routine.  The cure is a manual swabbing (described here previously) with isopropyl alcohol, which is 1) easy and 2) works every time.  Beyond that, virtually any printer might need a more aggressive cleaning if it has not been used for multiple years...

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hugowolf

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2013, 07:50:04 pm »

It just isn't really a problem though. 

Really? Probably the longest running thread on Lula forums, and there are many others:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.0

Brian A
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2013, 09:45:20 pm »

Really? Probably the longest running thread on Lula forums, and there are many others:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=61585.0

Brian A

But that doesn't make clogging a real problem with those particular printers.
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Sal Baker

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2013, 11:34:11 pm »

It just isn't really a problem though.  And that would be particularly true for what appears to be the environment the OP will be operating in.

At the start of each day, print a "Nozzle Check".  If it isn't perfect, run a Nozzle Clean routine.  Simple as that.  It wouldn't be unreasonable to just start every day with a cleaning routine either, needed or not, and particularly so on Monday mornings.

When these printeres are unused for a long period (several months or a year or more) it is possible to get a clog that takes more than one or two stabs at the cleaning routine.  The cure is a manual swabbing (described here previously) with isopropyl alcohol, which is 1) easy and 2) works every time.  Beyond that, virtually any printer might need a more aggressive cleaning if it has not been used for multiple years...



Based on the continued reports in this and other forums about 4900 head clogging problems I don't see how it could be a good choice for someone who needs to shut the printer down for several months each summer. 

Sal
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Richowens

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2013, 11:53:01 pm »

Ziegler,

 You don't say where you are located. If in the US have you considered Costco or Walmart or Sam's Club?
An 8x10 is only a buck and a half at Costco. You cannot print on an inkjet for that besides the maintenance headache of keeping your own printer going.
IMHO the 4900 is the last printer you should be buying. The x900 head is prone to die or clog not just betweeen jobs but between prints, they seem to be more prone than previous printer models.
  If you were doing the printing for just yourself, I would say go for it. Do you want to take a chance with your students work. Without experience the 4900 is not the printer you want unless you can get a good supply of Excedrin with it.

My take on the whole thing.
Rich
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Joseph Yeung

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2013, 02:00:03 am »

Why hasn't anybody suggested the new Epson CISS printers? They're small format, cost peanuts and the running economy will trump even pro printers since you buy ink by the bottle--you can even substitute with 3rd party inks and push running costs down to near zero with little trouble. They're even dye based for the least clogging trouble. Even the top model L800 costs just $500 or so.

Of course, any printer can be converted to CISS by aftermarket modders. I was offered to have my $200 Canon iX6560 (that prints 13" wide) converted to CISS for a mere $30. Maybe I should have taken them up for that offer...  ;D but such warranty-voiding measures may be hard to swallow for the school administration... hence the suggestion for the Epson L-series...
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darlingm

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2013, 03:16:29 am »

With a X900, you're rolling the dice what's going to happen when it sits quite a while.  Don't chance it.

Plan for that, and purchase the software called Harvey Head Cleaner.

It's a whopping $40, and prints a small pattern every day so your printer isn't actually sitting unused.  Throw a roll of inexpensive plotter paper in, and over the summer and even on the weekends leave big signs on the printer and computer running the software, saying "DO NOT TURN OFF - YOU WILL DESTROY THE PRINTER" for maintenance staff.
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2013, 07:43:17 am »

Based on the continued reports in this and other forums about 4900 head clogging problems I don't see how it could be a good choice for someone who needs to shut the printer down for several months each summer. 

Sal

Somebody said so on the Internet, so it's true that the sky is falling...

It might be true that the heads clog more frequently on the 4900 than on other models.  But note that we don't hear the same noise about the 7900 and the 9900 models using the same head technology.  The users of the wider carriage models are probably more technically savy and definitely more serious too.

The bottom line is that just because head clogging happens doesn't make it a big problem.  There are rather easy ways to deal with it,  so it just is not really a problem.

If the OP wants to stick with a 17" carriage or cannot budget an Epson 7890, the Epson 4900 is clearly the best choice.  There may be some Epson 4880 models still available new, but the cost of changing between PK and MK inks is excessive,  plus the paper cutter cannot deal with heavy weight paper.  Hence the 4900 is the right 17" Epson model.

However, I would highly recommend finding a way to budget an Epson 7890.  It's easier to operate, it prints faster, plus the paper and the ink are less expensive.  It has disadvantages that do not appear to affect the OP.  Specifically it cannot auto feed sheet paper, but it appears the OP probably has access to other printers for times when sheet feed is useful.  For photographs only, printing on roll paper, the Epson 7890 is a very good choice.  (And yes the heads clog, but that is not a "real problem".)
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Sal Baker

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2013, 08:16:41 am »

Somebody said so on the Internet, so it's true that the sky is falling...

It might be true that the heads clog more frequently on the 4900 than on other models.  But note that we don't hear the same noise about the 7900 and the 9900 models using the same head technology.  The users of the wider carriage models are probably more technically savy and definitely more serious too.

The bottom line is that just because head clogging happens doesn't make it a big problem.  There are rather easy ways to deal with it,  so it just is not really a problem.

If the OP wants to stick with a 17" carriage or cannot budget an Epson 7890, the Epson 4900 is clearly the best choice.  There may be some Epson 4880 models still available new, but the cost of changing between PK and MK inks is excessive,  plus the paper cutter cannot deal with heavy weight paper.  Hence the 4900 is the right 17" Epson model.

However, I would highly recommend finding a way to budget an Epson 7890.  It's easier to operate, it prints faster, plus the paper and the ink are less expensive.  It has disadvantages that do not appear to affect the OP.  Specifically it cannot auto feed sheet paper, but it appears the OP probably has access to other printers for times when sheet feed is useful.  For photographs only, printing on roll paper, the Epson 7890 is a very good choice.  (And yes the heads clog, but that is not a "real problem".)
The question was asked on the Internet, in a forum populated by knowledgeable people.  The the question has been addressed by many here.  What's with telling a classroom school teacher that clogging is not a big deal?  It costs money in significant wasted ink, frustration, time wasted and failed prints.

I can only speak from my personal experience. My 3880 has not had a clog or required a head cleaning in 4 years.  Many others in this forum have had similar experience.  In this same forum, others have reported terminal 4900 head clogs and the need to keep the printer in constant use to minimize the repeated clogs.  Unless there's a conspiracy afoot in this and other photography printing forums there is a clear difference between the reliability of these 2 printers. 

The OP wants something that can just be turned on, produce high quality prints, and turned off or go unused for months.  In my Internet opinion, the 3880 is clearly the best shot at achieving this goal with reasonable consumables costs and no need to learn how to soak and clear delicate print head in a classroom setting with no IT support.  Stubborn clogs that prevent a room full of students from printing their projects would be a big deal IMO.   

Sal
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hjulenissen

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2013, 08:44:19 am »

I guess the technical competence, willingness to do service, and the level of cooperation from the students is information lacking from the OP. Is the OP interested in doing whatever work/training needed to get optimal results at a reasonable price, or does he just want something that "works"?

Does it need to work like a prison pay-phone (withstanding any level of abuse and still working), or will it be treated more like a lab-piece of equipment?

-h
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HSakols

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2013, 09:03:45 am »

I own an Epson 4800 and find that I have to run the power cleaning function after the summer. I never print in the summer and my digital lab gets quite hot.  I'll have to try using alcohol to clean the heads this time.  Furthermore, I'm also a teacher (grades 4,5,6) and have given up on the Epson 2200 in my classroom.  I just print their photos from home, spending my own money. 
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Floyd Davidson

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2013, 09:13:44 am »

I can only speak from my personal experience. My 3880 has not had a clog or required a head cleaning in 4 years. 

Wonderful, but irrelevant.  The Epson 3880 would not be a better choice than the Espon 4900.

Quote
Many others in this forum have had similar experience.  In this same forum, others have reported terminal 4900 head clogs and the need to keep the printer in constant use to minimize the repeated clogs.  Unless there's a conspiracy afoot in this and other photography printing forums there is a clear difference between the reliability of these 2 printers.

Well, that's true. The Epson 3880 doesn't have the build quality, nor the convenience, of the Epson 4900.  For someone expecting to run off 70 8x10's at a time, the Epson 4900 is a much better choice in terms of reliability.
 
Quote
The OP wants something that can just be turned on, produce high quality prints, and turned off or go unused for months.

That's not quite what he described though.  He wants to make 1000 prints, as many as 70 at a time, over the course of a "school year".  The machine will go unused for one interval per year.

That schedule makes operation very easy.  When a production run is started, the first operation is to print a Nozzle Check, which takes a few seconds and uses a couple inches of paper and an insignificant amount of ink.  If it isn't perfect, a Nozzle Clean routine is run.  That takes only a bit longer, uses no paper, and a very small amount of ink.

In fact, if the printer is turned off when not being used the Nozzle Clean can be set up to automatically happen when the machine is turned on.  All that would need to be done normally is to print a Nozzle Check while checking ink and paper.

If the printer is in use once a week or so it is exceedingly unlikely that anything more than the above will be required.  It also allows checking the paper roll and the ink supply at the same time, so the basic routine is a good practice anyway.
If the printer ever does need more attention, and that is very likely at the beginning of each school year, the process to clean a severely clogged head is extremely simple.  Feed a large sheet of paper and give it a simple image that will put at least something in the middle of the sheet, and poor a puddle of isopropyl alcohol into the paper and allow the head to move through it several times.  End of "problem".  If that is too much effort, perhaps printing a Walmart is a better solution anyway! :-)

The time "wasted" and the amount of "frustration" over the above with the 4900 is significantly less than just the amount of time and frustration that will be experience waiting for a 3880 to finish the job, compared to the 4900 which prints about 2.5 times as fast.

If students will actually be operating the machine the ease of use needs to be considered too.  Sheet feeding is comparatively error prone for newbies, while roll paper requires much less fiddling.

Quote
  In my Internet opinion, the 3880 is clearly the best shot at achieving this goal with reasonable consumables costs and no need to learn how to soak and clear delicate print head in a classroom setting with no IT support.  Stubborn clogs that prevent a room full of students from printing their projects would be a big deal IMO.   

Do you have any experience with commercial grade printers other than the 3880 you recommend?  I'll grant that there are situations where a 3880 is ideal.  This is clearly not one of them.
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Bullfrog

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2013, 09:43:23 am »


Do you have any experience with commercial grade printers other than the 3880 you recommend?  I'll grant that there are situations where a 3880 is ideal.  This is clearly not one of them.

May I ask,  what specifically makes your experience more credible than another posters?  Do you have 3rd party, independently peer reviewed data that you will provide here that supports your position?  I note you have a couple printers, and you print stuff.  I assume that your views are therefore anecdotal - correct?

Regardless, here is yet ANOTHER diatribe on the infamous clogging Epson and why people (like me) opted to go with Canon for their wide format needs.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3373118

Anyway, to the OP:  If it was me, I would opt for the devil I know.  The 3800 has a ton of other features that I like, for example, Simon Chan (name?) has provided some excellent profiles free (google his name assuming I am not having a senior moment, in which case someone here will surely correct me :0-) ) for black and white or (I believe) colour.  It was yet another reason I determined the 3800 would be a good choice - because profiles are tried and tested and free.  Its because this printer has such long-standing success that experts recommend it and support it.

In spite of anything written here, I would NOT go with the 4900 to simply save a bit of time, if that is the only reason you are considering it,  because you are assuming all other factors remain the same (ie clogging, maintenance, etc) - and I simply don't accept that to be true.  

To summarize:  You will never get everything you want in one printer, and each one has its quirks I guess.  The canon 100 is as one person posted capable of providing very excellent prints under prime conditions (ie the right paper) - but its optimal for low volume.

However, just to confuse thing, if you have the capital to spend and want something that longer term will be cost effective - I would look at Canon 6400 as a good choice.

My 6100 is now in year 5, I was away 7 months last year and just left it in sleep mode, (yes I came home every so often but never printed) - its been an exceptionally reliable printer with very good print quality.  Its a miser for ink and the advantage over Epson is the Canon has matte and black ink cartridges so when you switch media types it doesn't dump ink as waste to manage.  It is a bit of a dog for printing sheet vs roll - I tend to find sheet printing not worth the hassel on my 6100 and would suggest you just go roll and cut them afterward - its cheaper and hand feeding sheets is more of a time commitment than letting a roll run.

No its not ideal in B/W - hence my 3800 ambition.  If b/w is an important part of your curriculum and you want a printer that will do both well, without having to be an expert - I would still go back to the 3800.

I think you can surmise that you need to make a top 5 priority list and then trade off what is less important.  Only you can decide that.

Good luck.
 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 09:51:25 am by Bullfrog »
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Sal Baker

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2013, 11:41:27 am »

Wonderful, but irrelevant.  The Epson 3880 would not be a better choice than the Espon 4900.

Well, that's true. The Epson 3880 doesn't have the build quality, nor the convenience, of the Epson 4900.  For someone expecting to run off 70 8x10's at a time, the Epson 4900 is a much better choice in terms of reliability.
 
That's not quite what he described though.  He wants to make 1000 prints, as many as 70 at a time, over the course of a "school year".  The machine will go unused for one interval per year.

That schedule makes operation very easy.  When a production run is started, the first operation is to print a Nozzle Check, which takes a few seconds and uses a couple inches of paper and an insignificant amount of ink.  If it isn't perfect, a Nozzle Clean routine is run.  That takes only a bit longer, uses no paper, and a very small amount of ink.

In fact, if the printer is turned off when not being used the Nozzle Clean can be set up to automatically happen when the machine is turned on.  All that would need to be done normally is to print a Nozzle Check while checking ink and paper.

If the printer is in use once a week or so it is exceedingly unlikely that anything more than the above will be required.  It also allows checking the paper roll and the ink supply at the same time, so the basic routine is a good practice anyway.
If the printer ever does need more attention, and that is very likely at the beginning of each school year, the process to clean a severely clogged head is extremely simple.  Feed a large sheet of paper and give it a simple image that will put at least something in the middle of the sheet, and poor a puddle of isopropyl alcohol into the paper and allow the head to move through it several times.  End of "problem".  If that is too much effort, perhaps printing a Walmart is a better solution anyway! :-)

The time "wasted" and the amount of "frustration" over the above with the 4900 is significantly less than just the amount of time and frustration that will be experience waiting for a 3880 to finish the job, compared to the 4900 which prints about 2.5 times as fast.

If students will actually be operating the machine the ease of use needs to be considered too.  Sheet feeding is comparatively error prone for newbies, while roll paper requires much less fiddling.

Do you have any experience with commercial grade printers other than the 3880 you recommend?  I'll grant that there are situations where a 3880 is ideal.  This is clearly not one of them.
Not at home, do you have personal experience using a 3880?

If you consider actual user experience with a printer to be irrelevant, you're in no position to offer credible advice. 

Most all pro printers do better when being used a lot.  The 3880 is one that also does well when shut off for periods of time.  I would say that the printer with the best build quality is the one that works perfectly year after year with few to zero clogs no matter how often it's used.

Sal
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mziegler

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2013, 11:52:11 am »

Before my last post I read through the responses at least three times. I am trying to take everything in.

My situation: I have advised award-winning newspaper and yearbook for 26 years in Southern California, but I only got into photography when Nikon released the D1. Along with a number of f/2.8 lenses, I really needed to learn how to use the equipment. At this point I'm a good sports photographer, and I am learning a lot about portraits.

Last year was my first teaching photography. This year I have two beginning classes and one "advanced." The beginners are mostly seniors with terrible grades. They have been quite enthusiastic, and fairly quick to pick up camera basics -- they are getting correct exposures with manual settings.

I am charging a $20 lab fee. My goal is to display their work around school and in the local Starbucks and other coffee houses. I am working on the assumption that the fee will cover 10 8x10 prints (my working assumption is $.50 for paper).   Students who do not pay will not be able to print (grading will be done on my computer).

I have thought about using Costco. At $1.49, plus tax, I thought it might be a more expensive option. Since there is one near me, it might be more convenient.

I really know nothing about printing and printers. Right now my need for printing is to display their work. As I become more adept as a photography teacher, printing might become part of the curriculum.

I will not be printing that often, although that may change. There will be times when I ask the students to print a worthy shot, as I try to arrange for an exhibition. This will not be on even a weekly basis. At most it would be every other week.

The idea of buying software to run a test print on a regular basis is a great one, no matter what printer I get.

My room, btw, is air conditioned, which mean that humidity will be low. I can keep a printer in a room without air.

I would certainly use the printer for more than my photo classes. My publication photographers win national awards, and it would be great to be able to display their work too.

I hope this helps.

Mitch

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Bullfrog

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Re: High school photography teacher needs a printer.
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2013, 01:44:31 pm »

Mitch
Printing is a learning curve.  I don't think anyone can say they just "run" - unless of course you don't really care about what comes out. 
Using Costco vs buying a 3800 is apples and oranges.

One of the big reasons I like the 3800 is you can make it a dedicated b/w printer with Piezo inks - that means 7 "shades" of black .  Taking that and comparing it to Costco is like comparing a crunchy bar made with edible oil products to Godiva chocolates - its simply not fair to compare.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/piezo.shtml

I bought a printer because I wanted a longer term investment and while I knew NOTHING about printing when I started ( and I am certainly not a pro by any stretch now) - using it has taught me volumes.  Its something you either decide to do - or not.  I'm sure your students would get more out of learning about Giclee printing then drawing straws on who has to go to pick up the prints at Costco.

In terms of your fee:  it should work assuming the capital investment is not included.  Printers that are used with relatively high(er) volumes (I don't print anywhere near 1000 a year ) will have a shorter life on parts and I think most have a 1 year manufacturer warranty (you may want to look at buying some extended warranty) - but I would hope you would get 2 years minimum before any major replacement part is required.

The other option is lease it for 2 years instead of purchase - but its something you need to inquire about because I believe maintenance in a lease agreement is still your responsibility.


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