High school photography teacher needs a printer.

[mziegler]

I need some printer recommendations. I have three classes, 105 students. My hope is to display their work (probably 8 x 10's) around school and in the community. I am going to collect $20 per student (well, many of them) and print 10 for each student, which means about 1000 copies a year. The printer will be shut down during the summer (I believe this is a problem with inkjets).

I have been considering the Canon Pro-10 and Canon R-3000. Is there a consensus about which is better? Is there a better printer for my needs? Obviously I am deeply ignorant. I would appreciate any advice.

[hugowolf]

I need some printer recommendations. I have three classes, 105 students. My hope is to display their work (probably 8 x 10's) around school and in the community. I am going to collect $20 per student (well, many of them) and print 10 for each student, which means about 1000 copies a year. The printer will be shut down during the summer (I believe this is a problem with inkjets).

I have been considering the Canon Pro-10 and Canon R-3000. Is there a consensus about which is better? Is there a better printer for my needs? Obviously I am deeply ignorant. I would appreciate any advice.

Probably an Epson r3000, not Canon?

I would look at cartridge capacity, which tends to directly relate to ink costs per print. I would even look at he Epson 3880, which is bigger than you need but has 80 ml cartridges. It comes with about $450 more ink than the 13 inch printers.

Brian A

[rgs]

Pigment printers are the ones that tend to clog when not used regularly. A Canon PRO 100 (NOT the PRO 10) might be a good choice for you. Although a dye printer, it has impressed several on this forum. Dye printers naturally get very rich color, some say too rich. The PRO 100 also has black, grey, and light grey carts so also prints very nice B&W. With Canon or Ilford RC papers, fade resistance is reported to be excellent and many paper companies are producing profiles for their paper and the PRO 100. It's also a great buy right now.

While dye printers tend to be more maintenance free and have excellent color, their prints typically won't last as long as pigment. But both type will outlast wet lab prints. The PRO 100's ink carts are small compared to some of the Epson printers, like the 3880, mentioned by others and Canon printers tend to use more ink than Epson. So consider ongoing expenses as well as initial costs when making your decision.

[Floyd Davidson]

Personally, at 1000 8x10 prints a year, I'd start the thinking at an Epson 3880, but would seriously consider an Epson 4880, an Epson 4890, and also check out the feasibility of an Epson 7890.  (I haven't looked recently, but the last time I did there were no dye based printers that produce water resistant prints.  One small drop, and the print is destroyed.)

If you must do sheets, the Epson 7890 isn't such a good idea.  If the only use is photographs or graphics that can be printed on roll paper then the Epson 7890 is probably the best way to go.  It will have other side benefits, but lower ink cost and lower paper costs are the main issues.  The ability to print on 24in rolls is a serious benefit that you just won't really believe until you do it!  For example, 16x20 canvas wraps can be done...

The Epson 4880 and 4900 can also do sheet feeds.  The 4900 is more tempermental apparently, but it can switch between PK and MK inks for little cost.  The 4880 will cost roughly $60 to switch inks and that is probably not economical for what you are doing.

The 3880 does not do roll paper, has a significantly higher ink cost (but is still way less than consumer grade printers), and does not quite have the quality of build that the 48xx and 78xx series of printers do.  For example the 3880 does not have vacuum assisted paper transport (and you will like that).

Given that you will have students operating the printer the higher build quality of the commercial grade printers is significant.  The larger ink cartridges (80ml for the 3880, 200ml for the 4900, 220ml for the 4880, and 700ml for the 7890) make life easier and cost less per milliliter.  The 3880 ink, a year or so ago, cost 75% of ink for a 2880, and the other are about 1/2 the price of ink for a 2880.  Roll paper doesn't save quite as much, but it does save some and is easier to deal with too.  (Just note that the paper cutter on the 4880 cannot handle heavy paper like canvas, while the 4900 and 7890 can.)

When you figure up the cost, consider the amount of ink that comes with the printer.  Also figure the cost of ink over a 5 year period.  You'll find that 1000 8x10's a year puts you well past the breaking point to make a commercial grade printer actually less expensive in the long run.  (Except for the fact that your cost will be higher than you'd expect, simpy because after 1 nice 20x30 print it will be difficult to print 8x10's any more!  And with a 24in printer you'll waste paper to some degree printing 8x10, which I do two at a time at 8x20 using a 10x20 paper size.)

[rgs]

Personally, at 1000 8x10 prints a year, I'd start the thinking at an Epson 3880, but would seriously consider an Epson 4880, an Epson 4890, and also check out the feasibility of an Epson 7890.  (I haven't looked recently, but the last time I did there were no dye based printers that produce water resistant prints.  One small drop, and the print is destroyed.)

If you must do sheets, the Epson 7890 isn't such a good idea.  If the only use is photographs or graphics that can be printed on roll paper then the Epson 7890 is probably the best way to go.  It will have other side benefits, but lower ink cost and lower paper costs are the main issues.  The ability to print on 24in rolls is a serious benefit that you just won't really believe until you do it!  For example, 16x20 canvas wraps can be done...

The Epson 4880 and 4900 can also do sheet feeds.  The 4900 is more tempermental apparently, but it can switch between PK and MK inks for little cost.  The 4880 will cost roughly $60 to switch inks and that is probably not economical for what you are doing.

The 3880 does not do roll paper, has a significantly higher ink cost (but is still way less than consumer grade printers), and does not quite have the quality of build that the 48xx and 78xx series of printers do.  For example the 3880 does not have vacuum assisted paper transport (and you will like that).

Given that you will have students operating the printer the higher build quality of the commercial grade printers is significant.  The larger ink cartridges (80ml for the 3880, 200ml for the 4900, 220ml for the 4880, and 700ml for the 7890) make life easier and cost less per milliliter.  The 3880 ink, a year or so ago, cost 75% of ink for a 2880, and the other are about 1/2 the price of ink for a 2880.  Roll paper doesn't save quite as much, but it does save some and is easier to deal with too.  (Just note that the paper cutter on the 4880 cannot handle heavy paper like canvas, while the 4900 and 7890 can.)

When you figure up the cost, consider the amount of ink that comes with the printer.  Also figure the cost of ink over a 5 year period.  You'll find that 1000 8x10's a year puts you well past the breaking point to make a commercial grade printer actually less expensive in the long run.  (Except for the fact that your cost will be higher than you'd expect, simpy because after 1 nice 20x30 print it will be difficult to print 8x10's any more!  And with a 24in printer you'll waste paper to some degree printing 8x10, which I do two at a time at 8x20 using a 10x20 paper size.)

All good points. With 35 years of HS teaching experience, I know that the OP's funding circumstances may not allow these choices but they are probably best if the budget will allow. You should always go for the most professional experience for your students that the budget will allow but sometimes uncomfortable corners have to be cut.

One minor quibble. I recently had a large rain drop hit a print from my Canon PRO 100. The print was made on Canon's new Luster paper. I was sure it was ruined but I dabbed the water off of the print and waited for it to dry. No ink on the towel and when the print dried there was no sign of damage on the print. The old saw about water and dye ink may no longer be accurate. Technological advances have done wonders for the widely publicized weaknesses of both dye and pigment printers and their prints.

[Sal Baker]

The 3880 is about the only pigment inkjet that owners feel comfortable with shutting down for weeks or months at a time.  Mine has gone 4-years with no clogs even though it sits turned off for weeks/months.  The original ink lasted for 3-years. 

I would recommend avoiding printers with small carts.  They cost more per ml of ink and waste ink every time the carts are replaced, which is often.

Sal

[Floyd Davidson]

Clogging of nozzles isn't something I would be at all concerned with.  I use both an Epson 4880 and an Epson 7890, and there are times, particularly with the 4880, that each goes without being used for weeks, sometimes months.  Not that the heads don't clog, just that cleaning them actually is easy.

First, the head cleaning routines provided by the printer work very well.

But if they don't it is no trick at all to clean the heads with isopropyl alcohol or an ammonia based glass cleaner.  I much prefer alcohol because it evaporates very quickly and won't likely damage anything.  The method is to spill a pretty good puddle of alcohol on a large sheet of paper while it is being printed on.  Let the print head go back and forth across the puddle 15-20 times.  The eject the paper and wipe up as much excess liquid as possible and wait a while until the rest evaporates.  Clean heads are the guaranteed result, every time.  It's even easier than it sounds.

[mziegler]

I have to ask this -- someone suggested a Shinko S1245 printer. It's a dye-sub. Is this just a ridiculous suggestion given my needs?

[hugowolf]

Clogging of nozzles isn't something I would be at all concerned with.  I use both an Epson 4800 and an Epson 7890, and there are times, particularly with the 4880, that each goes without being used for weeks, sometimes months. 

But neither of these printers is still in production.

Brian A

[hugowolf]

I have to ask this -- someone suggested a Shinko S1245 printer. It's a dye-sub. Is this just a ridiculous suggestion given my needs?

Depends on whether you want to teach the whole process, or just the camera/image end.

Brian A

[aaronchan]

Actually I was about to say a dye sub printer might suit your need.
max size 8x12, can also do 4x6 & 5x7
good for school investment
And it can stay for a whole entire summer without a single problem.
and it's easier to calculate the print cost too.
a DNP DN80 cost 1550

aaron

[mziegler]

Depends on whether you want to teach the whole process, or just the camera/image end.

Brian A

My only purpose for the printer is to display student work. I am in no position to teach anything about printing.

[Floyd Davidson]

But neither of these printers is still in production.

The Epson 7890 is a current model.  The  Epson 4880 is now discontinued, but it hasn't been for all that long and there are still new ones available that might be considered.  The 4880 is probably not suitable for the OP's needs for the reasons I previously listed.  The 7890 might or might not be, and if the OP's needs match a roll paper only printer the 7890 is an exceptionally good choice.

Regardless, the article you responded to had nothing at all to do with the OP's needs, but listed the printers that I own and use and how ink/nozzle clogging affects their use.  Whether the two printers mentioned are current models is irrelevant.

[hugowolf]

The Epson 7890 is a current model.  The  Epson 4880 is now discontinued, but it hasn't been for all that long and there are still new ones available that might be considered.  The 4880 is probably not suitable for the OP's needs for the reasons I previously listed.  The 7890 might or might not be, and if the OP's needs match a roll paper only printer the 7890 is an exceptionally good choice.

Regardless, the article you responded to had nothing at all to do with the OP's needs, but listed the printers that I own and use and how ink/nozzle clogging affects their use.  Whether the two printers mentioned are current models is irrelevant.

Yes, sorry. The 7890 is definitely a current printer. But to what article are you referring? I was responding directly to your post.

Brian A

[Floyd Davidson]

Yes, sorry. The 7890 is definitely a current printer. But to what article are you referring? I was responding directly to your post.

The article you responded to listed those as the two printers that I use, and discussed nozzle clogging and cleaning methods.

[hjulenissen]

I would recommend avoiding printers with small carts.  They cost more per ml of ink

The total cost of owning and using a printer is the upfront cost + running costs. Depending on the number of prints expected, one or the other may dominate. You are probably right that at 1000 prints a year, the running costs become quite significant.

I am a hobby user, doing a few prints for myself and my family. For me, spending something like $1500 on a printer would likely not be worth it economically, even if the included inks lasted forever. Now, if there was a 17" consumer dye printer (at low initial cost, relatively small/expensive carts), I might be tempted...

and waste ink every time the carts are replaced, which is often.

Why is that? I run my Canon 9000 mk2 cartridges until they are dry. Does not seem to be any significant amount of ink that is wasted.

-h

[Sal Baker]

The total cost of owning and using a printer is the upfront cost + running costs. Depending on the number of prints expected, one or the other may dominate. You are probably right that at 1000 prints a year, the running costs become quite significant.

I am a hobby user, doing a few prints for myself and my family. For me, spending something like $1500 on a printer would likely not be worth it economically, even if the included inks lasted forever. Now, if there was a 17" consumer dye printer (at low initial cost, relatively small/expensive carts), I might be tempted...Why is that? I run my Canon 9000 mk2 cartridges until they are dry. Does not seem to be any significant amount of ink that is wasted.

-h

The 3880 is only $929 w/free shipping.  It's ends up being the less expensive option because it comes with $450 more ink than the r3000.   The 3880 has a strong reputation for not clogging, which means no ink is thrown away for head cleanings.  A small amount of ink is wasted in inkjet printers when carts are replaced because of the need the charge the lines.  Printers with small carts need carts changed 3 to 4 times more often than the 3880 which I'm guessing would be a PITA in a classroom setting.  And going forward with small carts, the funding needed for replacement ink will require higher amounts of funding each year.

Sal

[hjulenissen]

The 3880 is only $929 w/free shipping. 

Where I live, it is $1834 + shipping.

I could buy it from the US, but many US companies don't want to ship abroad, and if they do, one has to pay insane shipping costs + 25% VAT + import transaction fees...

The 3880 has a strong reputation for not clogging, which means no ink is thrown away for head cleanings.

When I investigated a printer for my needs I found several reports about persistent clogging in various Epson printers and none in Canon printers. Since I use mine very seldomly, that is important to me.

A small amount of ink is wasted in inkjet printers when carts are replaced because of the need the charge the lines.

As ink cartridge is integrated with nozzles, and using visual inspection, I cannot imagine that being a significant factor with the Canon A3+ printers.

What _is_ a significant factor (for the OP) is the real-world price per 8"x10" print when you do 1000 a year. And that will probably be smaller for something like the 3880 than the pro 100.

-h

[Bullfrog]

I need some printer recommendations. I have three classes, 105 students. My hope is to display their work (probably 8 x 10's) around school and in the community. I am going to collect $20 per student (well, many of them) and print 10 for each student, which means about 1000 copies a year. The printer will be shut down during the summer (I believe this is a problem with inkjets).

I have been considering the Canon Pro-10 and Canon R-3000. Is there a consensus about which is better? Is there a better printer for my needs? Obviously I am deeply ignorant. I would appreciate any advice.

My 2c.  Determine your break even point and then go from there.

To do that - Check out the cost per print posted on the Canon 100 thread.  While you will invest more (capital costs) for the 3880 (here in Ontario it is around $1400 before tax without rebates or $1000 with rebate which I believe is over for the time being) - your break even may not be that unattractive when you consider the cost per print is about half of the Canon 100 pro.

Below is an extrapolate of my calcs based on information provided to me by others here  (posted on the thread link I provided)

If you are doing 1000 prints a year -and assuming that costs can be applied at the same rate on smaller prints - you would pay 40% more in ink cost on the Canon pro 100 then on the 3880 and if you check out that Red river price comparison on ink the Canon 10 is even higher.


********************
Epson Ink 80 ml cartridge $64.95 /80 ml = .811 cents per ml
 9 x 80 ml cartridges = 720 ml of ink included  on purchase x .811 cents = 583.00

Canon Ink 13 ml cartridge $19.95 /13 ml = 1.5 cents per ml
6 x 13 ml = $119.00 ink included on purchase

Net printer cost for Epson is about $400 with rebates (1000 - 583)  in Canada vs $180 for Canon (300 - 119)

So for $220 more, I get a wide format, pigment printer which over time will cost much less to use.


Red River Paper has some analysis of this: http://www.redrivercatalog.com/cost-of-inkjet-printing.html

Brian A

A Canon 100 13x19 print is $2.70 based on ink cost of $16.99 per cartridge.  
Canada  pricing is $19.99 - so without pro-rating, I estimate 20% and round to $3.20 per print (excluding cost of paper)

The Epson is $2.00 per print based on ink cost of $54.99
Canada pricing is $65 - so rough prorating, that's 20% increase or $2.40 per print (excluding cost of paper) - less for non-matte.

Ink costs about 40% more from Canon.  


http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=81853.20

**********
ETA:  While I don't own the 3880 - the feedback that I have read on this forum - some included in that link attached, indicates the 3880 performs well even with minimal use.  Having said that, I don't quite understand why you cannot still leave the printer ON in power save mode over summer break (assuming the epson does what my canon 6100 does - perform routine nozzle checks and agitation while it sleeps).

[mziegler]

So far the information has been quite useful. Thanks!

I am convinced that I need a pro series Epson, especially considering the operating cost. Budgets mean everything in a school setting.

When I look at print speeds, suddenly the 4900 looks like the way to go. I will be printing up to 70 at a time, and time is an important consideration. Even more attractive is that replacements cartridges are 200ml.

Two additional inks, however, will increase the price per photo, right?