Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?

[bcooter]

I'll tell you a little secret.

Medium format still cameras are the bridge between analog film and digital, especially if you use a manual contax, or RZ, or V system.

Of the kids that work for me, they lust for a medium format camera . . . and the only reason they don't go that route is the cost.

Actually, they think they missed something not using analog film, so some shoot a little bit of  film, but film really isn't that effective for a lot of work, so they stick with their D's dslrs.

I think . . .ok . . . I know that my medium format ccd cameras produce a different look than the glass smooth, global color dslr look, but before anybody screams . . . like everything that's personal opinion.

What I don't get the where is sensor development stuff talk comes from.   Heck, we all used the same film stock for years and didn't send tweets to Kodak about where is 4,000 iso film without grain. (Well of course we didn't tweet), but you get my drift.

I think the downside of the Hasselblad talk came out of the Lunar, but it's not meant for me anymore than a a Louis Vuitton camera case, so I don't care, I hope they make a bunch of money off of it.

But . . . look on the Hasselblad site.  They've got h3dII 31mpx bodies for 4 grand.  

I might buy one just for those rare times I need a faster sync speed.

IMO

BC

[eronald]

But . . . look on the Hasselblad site.  They've got h3dII 31mpx bodies for 4 grand.  Heck I might buy one just for those rare times I need a faster sync speed.

IMO

BC

You got a link?

Edmund

[JV]

You got a link?

Edmund

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/husa_cert_preowned.pdf

There was a H4D-40 with 6 months warranty for around $7K...

[eronald]

http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/husa_cert_preowned.pdf

There was a H4D-40 with 6 months warranty for around $7K...

thx!
Edmund

[Nick-T]

Hasselblad hasn't invested a penny in R&D in many years and it is showing. And the Lunar product seems to be the only thing they have 'invested' in, even though that isn't R&D by my standards. It's really sad, unfortunately.

This is not true.

Around 10% of Hasselblad employees are working on Lunar/Stellar type projects. The rest of them are not just sitting around watching.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't have the slightest idea, my questions are rather:

- Is the company profitable? Important for long time survival, you know!
- What about marketshare, is it constant, increasing or decreasing?
- Widening into new fields like archival photography and arial photography, what progress has been made.

Other than that, it is a question of lenses, lens quality, autofocusing ability and precision. All those areas may be something that Hasselblad is good at or not? I don't know. MPixels and MTF doesn't help if the lens is out of focus!

It seems that MF sensor are not in a rapid development, but PhaseOne cooperated with Dalsa in development of the IQ260 sensor. Got the impression that the main reason for Phase switching to Dalsa was the option to have input on development. The real step forward may be a modern CMOS design. Leica has invested development money in the CMOSIS sensor for the M (240). It may be possible that Phase is working on CMOS? Makes a lot of sense on technical cameras.

To me it seems that Hasselblad is reducing prices while Phase One is trying to develop MFDBs which command higher prices.

Best regards
Erik

This is not true.

Around 10% of Hasselblad employees are working on Lunar/Stellar type projects. The rest of them are not just sitting around watching.

[design_freak]

This is not true.

Around 10% of Hasselblad employees are working on Lunar/Stellar type projects. The rest of them are not just sitting around watching.

+1000
 

[eronald]

The issue of H vs. Phase prices may have something to do with branding. At the moment practically every brand is moving upmarket, the idea being that in many countries the population is fracturing into high net worth vs. low class. The middle class is getting squeezed. An interesting effect are rising luxury car sales - I seem to see a used Ferrari lot on every street corner over here in Paris, and fewer of those cheapo Porsches and sports BMW on the streets. So one could imagine that Phase's strategy of raising prices is just right - which doesn't make their product any more appropriate for general use than a Ferrari btw, but it does imply that there will be a market for coaching people driving Phase One backs - oh wait, the penny is dropping ...


I guess brand H is now in the worst possible position, too expensive for low-end SLR buyers, not enough of a luxury, and trying to sell decent still cameras to working photographers who are either running out of money or moving into big-campaign video like our friend with the name of a bird. Brand P is paying dealers to rope in the whales.

Edmund

Hi,

I don't have the slightest idea, my questions are rather:

- Is the company profitable? Important for long time survival, you know!
- What about marketshare, is it constant, increasing or decreasing?
- Widening into new fields like archival photography and arial photography, what progress has been made.

Other than that, it is a question of lenses, lens quality, autofocusing ability and precision. All those areas may be something that Hasselblad is good at or not? I don't know. MPixels and MTF doesn't help if the lens is out of focus!

It seems that MF sensor are not in a rapid development, but PhaseOne cooperated with Dalsa in development of the IQ260 sensor. Got the impression that the main reason for Phase switching to Dalsa was the option to have input on development. The real step forward may be a modern CMOS design. Leica has invested development money in the CMOSIS sensor for the M (240). It may be possible that Phase is working on CMOS? Makes a lot of sense on technical cameras.

To me it seems that Hasselblad is reducing prices while Phase One is trying to develop MFDBs which command higher prices.

Best regards
Erik

[jerome_m]

An interesting effect are rising luxury car sales - I seem to see a used Ferrari lot on every street corner over here in Paris, and fewer of those cheapo Porsches and sports BMW on the streets.

Really? That is frightening.

[JV]

The issue of H vs. Phase prices may have something to do with branding. At the moment practically every brand is moving upmarket, the idea being that in many countries the population is fracturing into high net worth vs. low class. The middle class is getting squeezed. An interesting effect are rising luxury car sales - I seem to see a used Ferrari lot on every street corner over here in Paris, and fewer of those cheapo Porsches and sports BMW on the streets. So one could imagine that Phase's strategy of raising prices is just right - which doesn't make their product any more appropriate for general use than a Ferrari btw, but it does imply that there will be a market for coaching people driving Phase One backs - oh wait, the penny is dropping ...


I guess brand H is now in the worst possible position, too expensive for low-end SLR buyers, not enough of a luxury, and trying to sell decent still cameras to working photographers who are either running out of money or moving into big-campaign video like our friend with the name of a bird. Brand P is paying dealers to rope in the whales.

Edmund

Unfortunately I am afraid your analysis is spot on.  Hasselblad is in a difficult postion.  They have not been able to capitalize on their brand name the way Leica has.  They are much more expensive than Pentax ($7K body alone), the cheapest MFD solution.   And they are less expensive and perceived as less exclusive than Leica ($23K) and Phase One ($37K digital back alone, ouch).  They seem to want to move into the same segment as Leica and Phase One but I believe more than those two companies they still have more actually working photograhers using the system.  Tough spot indeed!

[Dustbak]

I guess brand H is now in the worst possible position, too expensive for low-end SLR buyers, not enough of a luxury, and trying to sell decent still cameras to working photographers who are either running out of money or moving into big-campaign video like our friend with the name of a bird. Brand P is paying dealers to rope in the whales.

Edmund

Same is happening over here, the gap between wealthy and 'poor' is widening. Middle class is being squeezed more and more.

Well, in that case it seems to make sense HB is raising their prices, beginning with the lenses...

[Doug Peterson]

Unfortunately I am afraid your analysis is spot on.  Hasselblad is in a difficult postion.  They have not been able to capitalize on their brand name the way Leica has.  They are much more expensive than Pentax ($7K body alone), the cheapest MFD solution.   And they are less expensive and perceived as less exclusive than Leica ($23K) and Phase One ($37K digital back alone, ouch).  They seem to want to move into the same segment as Leica and Phase One but I believe more than those two companies they still have more actually working photograhers using the system.  Tough spot indeed!

I don't think it's right to use the word "exclusive" to describe Phase One's market positioning. At least if you're using the word the way I'm interpreting it "exclusivity = brand cache = ornamental purchase"

Yes they have an IQ280 which is positioned at the highest price point in MF (justifiably so IMO as the IQ2 is the best there is).

But they also play very heavily in the more entry-level market. We sold many more P+ refurb bundles than we expected to with the $8k back+body+lens as one of the top movers. I don't think any of these new customers were buying "exclusivity" - they just wanted medium format for it's traditional strengths (flash sync speed, lens quality, color, viewfinder size, tonality, dimensional rendering etc etc).

Phase has always insisted that they will not play the "collectors" or "special edition" cards. To say they are going the route of "exclusive" is - I think - missing the mark.

Ask a dozen people on the street if they know the name "Phase One" and you're more likely to find someone who knows about the fad diet than the camera maker.

[JV]

I don't think it's right to use the word "exclusive" to describe Phase One's market positioning. At least if you're using the word the way I'm interpreting it "exclusivity = brand cache = ornamental purchase"

Yes they have an IQ280 which is positioned at the highest price point in MF (justifiably so IMO as the IQ2 is the best there is).

But they also play very heavily in the more entry-level market. We sold many more P+ refurb bundles than we expected to with the $8k back+body+lens as one of the top movers. I don't think any of these new customers were buying "exclusivity" - they just wanted medium format for it's traditional strengths (flash sync speed, lens quality, color, viewfinder size, tonality, dimensional rendering etc etc).

Phase has always insisted that they will not play the "collectors" or "special edition" cards. To say they are going the route of "exclusive" is - I think - missing the mark.

Ask a dozen people on the street if they know the name "Phase One" and you're more likely to find someone who knows about the fad diet than the camera maker.

exclusive - definition of exclusive by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia:
Catering to a wealthy clientele; expensive

The cheapest last generation offering from Phase One was the IQ260 at $37K (without the camera body).  This is almost double of the Leica S....

With all due respect I don't believe I am missing the mark...

Best, Joris.

[eronald]

Doug is a nice guy, don't hit him too hard. He knows as well as you that the whole point of an exclusive night club is that as you walk in you pass all the people who won't be let in
When I complained to an H exec about pricing, his companion, a blonde model, at the Photokina H booth party replied for him:
"In every area there will be elitist products".

Edmund

exclusive - definition of exclusive by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia:
Catering to a wealthy clientele; expensive

The cheapest last generation offering from Phase One was the IQ260 at $37K (without the camera body).  This is almost double of the Leica S....

With all due respect I don't believe I am missing the mark...

Best, Joris.

[Ken R]

Bottom line is that Phase One has concentrated on making the best Medium Format Digital Backs and they keep supporting the older generation backs. Because of that their effective product line is pretty large since even a P25+ can be considered somewhat part of it even though it is obviously not currently manufactured. The P40+ is still being made I believe and it is $14k new but much less refurbished or used. PhaseOne backs are basically form follow function designs so they are solid image recording devices plain and simple. Like film in a box. They have incorporated a lot more functionality in the IQ2 series but obviously the older models still lag a bit behind in the features department compared to a DSLR. But they are designed to be used in a wide variety of cameras. That makes them quite versatile since you can have one back and use it on many different camera platforms. Like it was mentioned they spend their money improving the backs not adding fancy materials in the name of looks or fancy colors and finishes. Also, can't leave out the CaptureOne software. It provides an awesome workflow specially when tethering is used.

Could they be more affordable? Of course. There is a point where lowering the price to a certain level would increase the customer base significantly, increase sales volume to a point that the backs become even more profitable. But, that might have worked better during a time when a lot of people still had their hands on medium format film cameras. That time is long gone. Right now they depend on their own camera platform (Mamiya/Phase) and the Hasselblad H. Tech cameras are a non issue since they can use adapters and is a much more open system.

Hasselblad has basically refined their H system. That is good news. Yes the Lunar is an embarrassing endeavor (in the eyes of most photography professionals and enthusiasts) but at least the H was not dropped.

[eronald]

The big dSLR system cameras used to be expensive because they were universal - anything a pro wanted to do with a camera he could do with a Nikon and the right accessory. This argument does not hold for digital backs - they simply cannot do liveview, video, really fast follow focus, multiple focus points, fast burst rates, integrated wifi or all those other strange things which the kids of the iPhone generation expect. In their eyes, like you say, and as James says, they are as modern as film

Edmund

Bottom line is that Phase One has concentrated on making the best Medium Format Digital Backs and they keep supporting the older generation backs. Because of that their effective product line is pretty large since even a P25+ can be considered somewhat part of it even though it is obviously not currently manufactured. The P40+ is still being made I believe and it is $14k new but much less refurbished or used. PhaseOne backs are basically form follow function designs so they are solid image recording devices plain and simple. Like film in a box. They have incorporated a lot more functionality in the IQ2 series but obviously the older models still lag a bit behind in the features department compared to a DSLR. But they are designed to be used in a wide variety of cameras. That makes them quite versatile since you can have one back and use it on many different camera platforms. Like it was mentioned they spend their money improving the backs not adding fancy materials in the name of looks or fancy colors and finishes. Also, can't leave out the CaptureOne software. It provides an awesome workflow specially when tethering is used.

Could they be more affordable? Of course. There is a point where lowering the price to a certain level would increase the customer base significantly, increase sales volume to a point that the backs become even more profitable. But, that might have worked better during a time when a lot of people still had their hands on medium format film cameras. That time is long gone. Right now they depend on their own camera platform (Mamiya/Phase) and the Hasselblad H. Tech cameras are a non issue since they can use adapters and is a much more open system.

Hasselblad has basically refined their H system. That is good news. Yes the Lunar is an embarrassing endeavor (in the eyes of most photography professionals and enthusiasts) but at least the H was not dropped.

[Ken R]

The early DSLRs sucked. They were really bad in most things. That is why even though a lot of photojournalists ditched film (not all due to their own choice) a lot of photographers continued to use film. The Canon 1DS started to change the game. It was $8k and the Kodak DCS back was $12k, not a huge difference but the Kodak was better in the studio. The 1DS2 was THE dslr that converted a lot of the high end photographers from film to digital but again the backs were better for certain photographers although the price difference was pretty large even though the Canon was still $8k. The Canon provided excellent quality 16 mp files.

Still, if you want the very best image quality possible nothing beats the best 60 and 80mp digital backs. Whether that is a must for one's work is another topic entirely. But if you want it, it is available.

[eronald]

The early DSLRs sucked. They were really bad in most things. That is why even though a lot of photojournalists ditched film (not all due to their own choice) a lot of photographers continued to use film. The Canon 1DS started to change the game. It was $8k and the Kodak DCS back was $12k, not a huge difference but the Kodak was better in the studio. The 1DS2 was THE dslr that converted a lot of the high end photographers from film to digital but again the backs were better for certain photographers although the price difference was pretty large even though the Canon was still $8k. The Canon provided excellent quality 16 mp files.

Still, if you want the very best image quality possible nothing beats the best 60 and 80mp digital backs. Whether that is a must for one's work is another topic entirely. But if you want it, it is available.

Now why can't I get a back with the same sensor as in the Proback for $2K for my V-series Hassy? Digital backs seem to be the only electronics product that never becomes affordable.

The only company which has been decent in MF pricing so far is Pentax, but then Japan seems to be the only country left with a normal middle class.

BTW, the guys at Canon told me some years ago that the big problem they have with their pro bodies is that working pros cannot afford them anymore and are using the prosumer models.

Edmund

[torger]

BTW, the guys at Canon told me some years ago that the big problem they have with their pro bodies is that working pros cannot afford them anymore and are using the prosumer models.

I think "don't want to pay more than they need" is more correct than "cannot afford". If your business is not profitable enough to allow you to buy a $6-7K Pro DSLR body you probably have other more serious problems with economy. But if you get the same job done with the same efficiency with lower cost tools, why pay more? This is how rational professionals think. Not all are that rational though.

Anyway, if you move to the amateur segment there's less rationalism and then you can sell luxury items etc to people that can afford it. Hasselblad seems to make a move in that direction.

Concerning digital back pricing I think that sensor area is still a problem, ie anything that needs a large contiguous chunk of silicon will be expensive, so the raw components for making a digital back is still relatively expensive. The digital back manufacturer probably needs to pay somewhere around $3K per sensor. Even with those prices backs could be sold cheaper though, say like a pro DSLR body ~$7K and aim for more volume instead, but that would require a different business model, and probably more DSLR-similar technology (ie live view, high ISO) to attract a larger mass of users.

Making MF just a slightly larger DSLR but otherwise the same would be a bit boring though I think... I would be more excited to see a 6x6 sensor back for vintage cameras (and the Hy6) or a tech camera friendly back priced for advanced amateurs (ie interested in photography rather than showing off with luxury items), there are a lot of landscape photography amateurs out there. Some of us go through the effort of buying second hand digital backs just to get something decent to a decent price, but say if I could get a CFV-50 with a little bit more modern GUI for ~$8K buying new would be an alternative.

[bcooter]

Now why can't I get a back with the same sensor as in the Proback for $2K for my V-series Hassy? Digital backs seem to be the only electronics product that never becomes affordable.
\

You probably can find a proback for a contax or mamiya for 2k, less options for the V, but hey . . . you don't want to.

Kodak "loaned" me the proback so many times I thought I should name it and I only used it 1/10th of the time it was on set.  Great idea, gone wrong.  It overheated, the lcd view was goofy, the cost at 12k, later dropped to 8k was a non starter, given the fact the original 1ds gave you the same if better quality, in a real professional camera.

Heck, if your going to drop 2k, drop 4k on the 31mpx blad on their sale site.   You'll have twice the camera, twice the file, better software and something you can really use for a long time.

In regards to the prices of new medium format equipment, it is what it is.  Is it worth it . . . depends on the person.  I don't think an Arriflex with optimo lenses are worth shooting web videos with, but a lot of people will disagree, so to each his own.

To me, Phase and Leaf have done wonders with their backs and it's kind of a shame they don't have the front end camera to match.  I fear that by the time they do, Nikon will probably have an 45 mpx sensor dslr that will sell for $2,500.

Personally, if I shot mostly stills with a lot of light, I'd do the h5d because I like the camera, though truth be told don't need the camera.

Actually the only "cutting edge" equipment we add now is on the backside workflow, i.e. faster computers, graphic cards, software, drives.  Our issue isn't in the shooting day, our issues come from the backend process since we shoot huge volumes of still and motion content.

But a proback, might as well just buy a film camera.  Labs like Icon LA have the film to digital experience set up to be pretty painless.

IMO

BC