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Author Topic: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?  (Read 18242 times)

bdp

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2013, 09:34:51 pm »

Jerome, for me is the H5D slower than the H4D. When you switch on, you have longer to wait to take the first picture. when you will check the blinking part on the screen (overexposed), then you have to wait 4-5 sec....
rem

I have been told there is a firmware update coming out in the next week or so for the H5 cameras which addresses a few issues, so maybe speed will be improved. My dealer said Hasselblad are very aware of the H5 being slower than the H4 when it comes to tethering, and are keen to improve it.

Ben
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2013, 09:39:19 pm »

Hi,

You can put a P45+ back on the V-series, it is close to full frame 645. My guess is that you can put an IQ2 series back on the V also, they are essentially full frame 645 (except the 140 model). A 6x6 would be very expensive, but perhaps less so if MF-sensors can be made at reasonable cost as Edmund says.

The SWC has problems of it's own, Biogon type lenses are not very compatible with digital sensors, because the short distance between the lens and the back, making the ray angle large. Leica has done some excessive work on the M-series.

Zeiss made a very good 40/4 lens (the FLE IF), that lens has excellent optical quality so I would suggest it may be a good alternative to the SWC. The SWC is distortionless, tough, while the Distagon has quite a bit of distortion.

By the way, you would not want a low res back, like 6MP, because of extensive aliasing. Aliasing is a frequent problem on a P45+ (below f/16 - f/22), with a low resolution back the  problems would be excessive.

Best regards
Erik


I wish they would come out with a FF digital back for the old film cams. Low mp would be fine if it was FF. Main thing is it must be affordable and FF to work like film did on a SWC.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:00:57 am by ErikKaffehr »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2013, 03:44:26 am »

At the price they sell these things each 80MP or 60 MP digital could come with its own engineer concierge service. Each camera would "adopt" some bright kid in Mumbai ... :)

One of the "innovations" we are missing in cameras is built-in scripting, although it is present in SLRs it is hidden from the user. The MF guys could expose it and provide custom scripting for users. Magic Lantern's features show what is possible. Oh but wait, they cannot do this - MF chips are too expensive. It's interesting how in the end the cost of chips has been used to justify ... a dearth of innovation. Frankly, I think a lot of users would have been happy with scripting in lieu of the "new" H5 upgrades.

By the way, although MF chips are expensive, "engineering grade" chips with defects are basically worthless as they cannot be sold. So there's no reason not to sell image development boards to students or consultants ... in fact Kodak used to do that.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 07:59:22 am by eronald »
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bdp

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2013, 07:59:16 am »

IMHO the obsession with newer sensors I often read about on forums like this is a little irrational. As far as I understand it is more about the electronics surrounding them and the software that enables things like slightly faster capture speeds or slightly better high ISO performance. The sensors themselves have probably not changed that much since I had my first 11mp back. In fact it seems that noise has gone up with megapixel counts, even at the base ISO.

Sure, Phase has introduced some amazing things like pixel-binning, a type of live-view on the back, wi-fi jpegs etc, but all of this is mostly developments of hardware around the sensor, and/or the software. I haven't seen any huge jump in image quality in the 10 years I have owned various medium format backs. I'm not defending Hasselblad's relative lack of development of new hardware features that may increase convenience or usability, but I think it's silly to get hung up on the sensors being the same as they were 5 years ago, because I really don't see image quality that much better than it was back then. If they can increase usability with the same sensors then who cares how old it is? For me it's about the end product and how easy it is to get there, and for that Hasselblad's pipeline from great lenses through to the fully digital body (controllable via the software) and Phocus's beautiful rendering of colour and detail and ease of use is what I like.

Few professionals need or want more than 40 megapixels anyway, so the lack of a back that shoots more than 60MP is not that bad. Professionals who shoot with old 22MP backs or with brand new 80MP backs get paid the same and the quality of their pictures is just as good once published. The exceptions are museums and large print-makers, and for those guys the big MP backs are great, but present their own challenges with wide lenses or slow multi-shot captures to name a few things.

Ben
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2013, 08:03:36 am »

People here see their SLRs do stuff like video and LiveView, and on-sensor auto-focusing, and they'd like these features on their MF devices. As an example, the Alpa and technical camera users would really benefit from solid real-time liveview to an iPad. Rightly or wrongly people here believe that a new generation of sensors would enable such features.

Edmund

IMHO the obsession with newer sensors I often read about on forums like this is a little irrational. As far as I understand it is more about the electronics surrounding them and the software that enables things like slightly faster capture speeds or slightly better high ISO performance. The sensors themselves have probably not changed that much since I had my first 11mp back. In fact it seems that noise has gone up with megapixel counts, even at the base ISO.

Sure, Phase has introduced some amazing things like pixel-binning, a type of live-view on the back, wi-fi jpegs etc, but all of this is mostly developments of hardware around the sensor, and/or the software. I haven't seen any huge jump in image quality in the 10 years I have owned various medium format backs. I'm not defending Hasselblad's relative lack of development of new hardware features that may increase convenience or usability, but I think it's silly to get hung up on the sensors being the same as they were 5 years ago, because I really don't see image quality that much better than it was back then. If they can increase usability with the same sensors then who cares how old it is? For me it's about the end product and how easy it is to get there, and for that Hasselblad's pipeline from great lenses through to the fully digital body (controllable via the software) and Phocus's beautiful rendering of colour and detail and ease of use is what I like.

Few professionals need or want more than 40 megapixels anyway, so the lack of a back that shoots more than 60MP is not that bad. Professionals who shoot with old 22MP backs or with brand new 80MP backs get paid the same and the quality of their pictures is just as good once published. The exceptions are museums and large print-makers, and for those guys the big MP backs are great, but present their own challenges with wide lenses or slow multi-shot captures to name a few things.

Ben
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bdp

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2013, 08:20:38 am »

People here see their SLRs do stuff like video and LiveView, and on-sensor auto-focusing, and they'd like these features on their MF devices. As an example, the Alpa and technical camera users would really benefit from solid real-time liveview to an iPad. Rightly or wrongly people here believe that a new generation of sensors would enable such features.

Edmund


That's true, but I assumed the OP was talking just about MF vs MF, and singling-out Hasselblad, not MF vs 35mm, or CCD vs CMOS etc.

Ben
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design_freak

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2013, 08:49:12 am »

I do not need a new sensor. Just return to the production of CF line . I would be happy with CF50, CF50MS (200MPix) or even CF60, CF60MS (240MPix).
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DF

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2013, 09:19:47 am »

That's true, but I assumed the OP was talking just about MF vs MF, and singling-out Hasselblad, not MF vs 35mm, or CCD vs CMOS etc.

Ben

I think people here would mostly like either SLR equivalent MF (video, LV, wifi, on-sensor focus etc) OR just get their old 500C with a decent LARGE SQUARE sensor for an affordable  price. The MF guys started well, but then they kind of ran out of gas, while the 35mm guys have started getting it. MF "updates" like H4 to H5  are not innovation, they are disguised stagnation. These guys could save the money for printing new brochures and pay some engineers rather than desktop publishing and marketing specialists.

I'm not joking - sell us a decent square full-frame back for the 500 series at the price of a Nikon D4 and there will be a queue around the block even if you print the brochures on toilet paper, and even if need to go to Kirkenses on Dec 24 to get it.

Edmund

PS although I guess they'd have to supply some pretty warm wine to keep us alive in that case ...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 09:25:11 am by eronald »
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design_freak

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2013, 09:20:44 am »

I think people here would mostly like either SLR equivalent MF (video, LV, wifi, on-sensor focus etc) OR just get their old 500C with a decent LARGE SQUARE sensor for an affordable  price. The MF guys started well, but then they kind of ran out of gas, while the 35mm guys have started getting it. MF "updates" like H4 to H5  are not innovation, they are disguised stagnation. These guys could save the money for printing new brochures and pay some engineers rather than desktop publishing and marketing specialists.

Edmund

+1000  ;D
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2013, 10:34:49 am »

Hi,

There is something to it. On the other hand, I would think Hasselblad et. al. have made some market research. My guess is that there are a lot of V-series users wanting a 6x6 back, but they may not buy the product if it actually was delivered. Realistically, companies make products for profit.

As a side note, I happen to use a P45+ back with a V-series Hasselblad and I am actually quite happy. But, I could buy a Nikon D800 and a bunch of Zeiss lenses for the same money and I guess I would be happy, too!

Best regards
Erik


I think people here would mostly like either SLR equivalent MF (video, LV, wifi, on-sensor focus etc) OR just get their old 500C with a decent LARGE SQUARE sensor for an affordable  price. The MF guys started well, but then they kind of ran out of gas, while the 35mm guys have started getting it. MF "updates" like H4 to H5  are not innovation, they are disguised stagnation. These guys could save the money for printing new brochures and pay some engineers rather than desktop publishing and marketing specialists.

I'm not joking - sell us a decent square full-frame back for the 500 series at the price of a Nikon D4 and there will be a queue around the block even if you print the brochures on toilet paper, and even if need to go to Kirkenses on Dec 24 to get it.

Edmund

PS although I guess they'd have to supply some pretty warm wine to keep us alive in that case ...
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2013, 11:35:01 am »

But, I could buy a Nikon D800 and a bunch of Zeiss lenses for the same money and I guess I would be happy, too!

For even less money you could buy a Fuji X-Pro1 and all of its lenses and still be very happy and have fun!
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design_freak

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2013, 11:56:26 am »

Or do not spend money, just start using your iPhone  ;D
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DF

PdF

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2013, 12:51:16 pm »

...and Sinar backs disappeared... (says Ronald).


http://sinar.ch/en/category/products/digital-backs/

PdF
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2013, 02:03:16 pm »

This link works
http://www.sinar.ch/en/category/products/digital-backs/

A great step forward - no screen. :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 02:05:47 pm by eronald »
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Dustbak

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2013, 02:28:59 pm »

There is an idea behind having no screen. These are the multishot backs, the idea is that having no screen means a lower operating temperature and lower noise files. Ever seen the results from a Sinar multishot back like the 75 or the 86?  These things are in a league of their own. If the ultimate image quality is what you are after and if it fits your workflow these things are worth looking at. They probably sell very few of these every year...
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2013, 02:33:20 pm »

There is an idea behind having no screen. These are the multishot backs, the idea is that having no screen means a lower operating temperature and lower noise files. Ever seen the results from a Sinar multishot back like the 75 or the 86?  These things are in a league of their own. If the ultimate image quality is what you are after and if it fits your workflow these things are worth looking at. They probably sell very few of these every year...

From the specs they also have no built-in storage ability or battery - which makes sense, but the completely tethered workflow this implies kind of distances them from a lot of people's creative process.

There are also some companies making scanners and scanbacks, but for some reason we don't talk about them a lot here. Might be a mistake though, I'm sure scanner technology is going to make a comeback with 3d scanners.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 02:37:31 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2013, 03:39:00 pm »

Hi,

I don't think so. The P45+ is a major step up from the Sony Alpha 99 I have with regard to resolution. From what I have seen the Nikon D800 with the very best lenses may be a match, I don't know because I don't have a Nikon D800. But seriously I don't think that Fuji plays in the same league.

Best regards
Erik

For even less money you could buy a Fuji X-Pro1 and all of its lenses and still be very happy and have fun!
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2013, 05:03:46 pm »

But seriously I don't think that Fuji plays in the same league.

Probably not but it has very good high ISO and 49 accurate focusing points...

And for an increasing number of wedding photographers (you know, these guys who used to shoot MF... and after that a FF DSLR...) it seems to get the job done, so who cares?

For shooting people you don't need 60-80 MP, even 40MP is probably overkill, 16-22 MP is more than sufficient, max 30 MP.

The niche in which MF is hiding is increasingly getting smaller...
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BJL

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2013, 07:17:43 pm »

The sensors themselves have probably not changed that much since I had my first 11mp back. In fact it seems that noise has gone up with megapixel counts, even at the base ISO.
I have to respond to this fashionable but ill-informed cynicism. One recent example is that the newest Dalsa-Phase One 60MP sensor improves long exposure performance and noise levels somewhat, and --- despite frequent claims to the contrary in forums --- there is significant interest amongst some MF back buyers in higher resolution like the 80MP option that "Team Phase One" offers, as shown by the persistently higher prices commanded by sensors of higher resolution. And again contrary to 100% pixel-peeping irrelevancy, modest increases in pixel count have generally not been accompanied by any degradation in IQ when comparisons are done fairly, viewing the images at equal apparent size, and indeed this increase pixel count offers one IQ advantage: allowing prints of the same size at higher PPI helps to reduce visible moiré effects.

On the other hand, I am not of the camp that says Hasselblad has made no developments: improvements in camera bodies matter too, and after all, that is where companies like Hasselblad used to make all their contributions back when they used film made by other companies. I just get the feeling that the decline of Kodak's sensor division and Phase One's ability to get long term exclusives on some Dalsa sensor models has put Hasselblad at some disadvantage.

EDIT: in case I have come across as saying that sensor progress is the most critical thing, I am interested to note that Sinar Photography seems to have a tactic of building a market niche by doing different and potentially useful things with its "tethered multi-shot backs" and technical/view cameras. I like that, because usually any company not in the top two of its sector needs to look at areas that its bigger competitors do not serve so well.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 10:26:33 am by BJL »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad's sensors: nothing newer than 2008?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2013, 11:36:27 pm »

Hi,

I don't think it is about MP but a lot of other things.

Personally I am mostly shooting landscape, essentially at base ISO and mostly on tripod and focus manually, if possible.

The question weather high MP-s are meaningful or not is interesting. With the P45+ I see lots of aliasing artifacts, going smaller pixels would help a lot. At this stage high MP backs are very expensive.

Regarding smaller formats, I am pretty much impressed by APS-C cameras, but we also see that full frame DSLRs are getting more affordable.

Mirrorless cameras are in my view a very good idea, and it makes a lot of sense to have lenses calculated for a smaller sensor size, like Fuji X does, because smaller formats need better lenses.

I don't think wedding photographers are the most demanding photographers, my guess is that honour would go to landscape and architecture shooters.

Best regards
Erik
Probably not but it has very good high ISO and 49 accurate focusing points...

And for an increasing number of wedding photographers (you know, these guys who used to shoot MF... and after that a FF DSLR...) it seems to get the job done, so who cares?

For shooting people you don't need 60-80 MP, even 40MP is probably overkill, 16-22 MP is more than sufficient, max 30 MP.

The niche in which MF is hiding is increasingly getting smaller...
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