Looking for extreme gamut gloss canvas OBA-free

[darlingm]

For the purposes of this post, by gamut, let's just focus on the darkest patch on a profile target.  In general, a darker black / better dmax is going to go with large gamut.

So, "Extreme Gamut" let's say 9 or below for L* on the LAB scale, uncoated.

Breathing Color Crystalline Gloss, last December.  Pure black 11.17 L*.  Good gamut.  Way better than Lyve's 20.78 L* (matte canvas.)  Curling was a nightmare, hated using it.

IJ Technologies Black Diamond Satin.  Pure black 8.11 L*.  Better gamut, no curling.  Loved it.

IJ just discontinued Black Diamond, replacing it with DuraGraphix Satin.  My test roll has pure black as 26.28 L*.  Horrible gamut.  Not on their site yet - not the duragraphix matte or duragraphix polyart that is on their site.  Finally released product could always be better...

B.C. Crystalline Gloss, this month.  Pure black 12.21 L* 15.9 L*.  Strange, same settings as last year's stuff gives a slightly worse 12.21 L* / dmax / gamut.  Still curls horribly.  Getting ink pooling in the valleys of the canvas unless I run at -10% ink density with canvas setting, wasn't happening last year... Pure black 15.9 L* due to that.  Working with B.C. to see if bad roll, but they said they did change formula a while ago.

Ordered Innova Photo Ultra Gloss.  Had horrible black flecks in gesso.  Replacement roll has pure black 6.15 L*!  Innova's website lists it as OBA free, but it fluoresces under blacklight, and M0 != M1 != M2, so it's not OBA free.  It's a lower amount of OBAs than many have, but still there.  (Bunch of patches have 2.5 dE2000 M1 vs M2.)  No curl.


OK, what product am I missing?  May stick with low-OBA Innova, but I don't think so.

[johnATshadesofpaper]

Mike,

I got confirmation from Innova that the canvas is in fact oba free. Here is the response I got. "We are not falsely advertising this product.  We do not add any OBA to the IFA-36 product.  I am certain what he sees is on the backside.  The canvas is a cotton-poly blend.  Synthetic fibers, such as the polyester threads in the canvas, have fluorescent properties.  All polyester threads have this property, not just the ones used in canvas.  If you test every cotton-poly blend canvas in the industry, you will see this.  However, it is a naturally occurring property and not a result of the addition of OBA’s.  It’s fluorescence is very low compared to the OBA’s added to bright white papers.  Since it is only on the back and covered by a gesso layer and then the ink receptive layer, it will have no impact on color shift over time."

It is nice to see a company who knows their products. Hope this helps with anyone who had quesitons.

Thanks,
John

[digitaldog]

Innova's website lists it as OBA free, but it fluoresces under blacklight, and M0 != M1 != M2, so it's not OBA free.

Based on that, I'd say you're correct and they are confused by their statement it's OBA free. What's the bStar read?

[hugowolf]

Hmm, I am not sure that polyester ‘naturally’ fluoresces, but most white polyester threads are made with some OBA content. It is probably going to be very difficult to find a poly/cotton blend without OBAs.

Brian A

[darlingm]

It wasn't my goal of this thread to get attention over the Innova OBA issue.  Was just intending to figure out what other canvas I could try.  I point out I never publicly said anything about false advertisement.

That being said, looks like the cat's out of the bag now, and we do all benefit from sharing information with each other here.

I'll be posting a detailed response hopefully later today, but it's 5am and I've been up way to late already.  For this post, I wanted to say two things.

First, I'm thrilled with Shades of Paper.  I've purchased a few things from them.  They seem like a great company, and have been a pleasure to deal with.  They're a distributor, of course not manufacturing the Innova canvas.  I understand what that means - I think many people miss that.  They've been handling all the issues I've had with Innova very actively, promptly, and to my satisfaction.  When a distributor tells me that they'll have to speak to the manufacturer before knowing how to proceed I cringe - BUT in Shades' case, it has been like they have a red emergency phone connected directly to the manufacturer.  I have no idea how John @ Shades was able to give me a reply from Innova at 8:25AM - when I sent him my message the previous night at 8:31PM!  I'm not ever even awake at 8:25AM!

Second, again, I'm not going to say publicly anything about false advertising.  After reading Innova's response, I stand by that this canvas does not fit the term "OBA free".  The crux of what Innova responded with is just incorrect.  I'll have the technical details posted hopefully later today.

[Wayne Fox]

So, "Extreme Gamut" let's say 9 or below for L* on the LAB scale, uncoated.

Breathing Color Crystalline Gloss, last December.  Pure black 11.17 L*.  Good gamut.  Way better than Lyve's 20.78 L* (matte canvas.)  Curling was a nightmare, hated using it.

OK, I don't use canvas anymore and I don't coat images.  However, when creating a profile, you measure your target in a finished state, which means on canvas such as Lyve you would print it, then coat it, then measure the targets, which I think would result in a blacker black.  (not sure, I know it will visually look a lot blacker). I think Lyve is specifically engineered to be coated. crystalline gloss is designed to use Photo Black inks and not be coated.

Just "thinking out loud" here ...

[darlingm]

LAB White Points (4 Samples Averaged)
M0: 94.73 L / -0.51 A / -0.20 B
M1: 94.77 L / -0.39 A / -0.77 B
M2: 94.70 L / -0.99 A / +1.36 B
M1 (D50 light w/ UV) to M2 (UV cut): -0.07 L, -0.60 A, +2.13 B (Like I said, it's less than heavy OBA papers - it's not +8 B, but it's still there.)

Blacklight on Front of Canvas - Art98 Gloss & Innova Photo Ultra Gloss fluoresces - Lyve/Crystalline/Black Diamond/Canon Graphic Matte don't


Blacklight on Back of Canvas - Surprisingly, the ones that didn't fluoresce on the front flouresce on the back & visa-versa!


ColorThink - M2 to M1 (500 patches evenly distributed in profile)


Front of Canvas Spectrum (i1 Photo Pro 2, 10 measurements averaged) - Again, it's less than OBA heavy papers.  Doesn't jump near 100 or over it, but still there.


Front of Canvas Spectrum Zoomed (i1 Photo Pro 2, 10 measurements averaged)


Back of Canvas Spectrum (i1 Photo Pro 2, 3 measurements averaged)

[darlingm]

Innova: "We do not add any OBA to the IFA-36 product." & "However, it is a naturally occurring property and not a result of the addition of OBA’s."
Answer: No difference to me whether the fluorescence is out of the way added, or if it comes along with the materials and design used.  Yes, the "A" means additives, but I think the common understanding of "OBA free" is that the printable side doesn't fluoresce, and spectral bare white measurements will be the same whether UV is present or not.  (M0=M1=M2, for spectral reflectance).

Innova: "I am certain what he sees is on the backside."
Answer: Nope!  Surprisingly, the front fluoresces more than the back!  Check out the first graph (the front) with a big difference in whitepoints, versus the last graph (the back) with very little difference.  (The graphs are even to the same scale.)

Innova: "The canvas is a cotton-poly blend.  Synthetic fibers, such as the polyester threads in the canvas, have fluorescent properties.  All polyester threads have this property, not just the ones used in canvas.  If you test every cotton-poly blend canvas in the industry, you will see this."
Answer: Totally false!  Every canvas I've used has been a cotton-poly blend.  The other ones I've used that say they're OBA free don't fluoresce on the front.  (Lyve, Crystalline, Black Diamond, and Canon Graphic Matte.)  Even if polyester threads have fluorescent properties, then other cotton-poly canvases that say they're OBA free are doing something that Innova's isn't.

Innova: "It’s fluorescence is very low compared to the OBA’s added to bright white papers."
Answer: Agreed!  I said this first, in my original post: "It's a lower amount of OBAs than many have, but still there.  (Bunch of patches have 2.5 dE2000 M1 vs M2.)"  Heavy OBA materials are going to have much bigger dE2000's.  I think it would be fair to call this a "Low-OBA" canvas.

Innova: "Since it is only on the back and covered by a gesso layer and then the ink receptive layer, it will have no impact on color shift over time."
Answer: Again, the print side fluoresces, so this is inaccurate.

[hugowolf]

Innova: "Since it is only on the back and covered by a gesso layer and then the ink receptive layer, it will have no impact on color shift over time."
Answer: Again, the print side fluoresces, so this is inaccurate.

So, maybe there are OBAs in the gesso. The canvas is OBA free, but the gesso coating isn't.

Brian A

[darlingm]

So, maybe there are OBAs in the gesso. The canvas is OBA free, but the gesso coating isn't.

Brian A

HAH!  You got me there!

[hugowolf]

HAH!  You got me there!

Yeh right, but it does give credence to statements claiming ‘OBA free canvas’. Has anyone done spectral analysis of gesso products? (There aren’t that many producers.) Where is Ernst, when you need him?

Brian A

[rgs]

Don't have much canvas experience so I'm not sure what comparison to make, but I got a sheet in a trial pack from Canson. It made a really nice print with a richness and shadow depth that is as good the best photo papers. I printed it with a Canon PRO 100. I think Canson is OBA free. You might give them a try.