Best lenses for Betterlight scanning backs?

[BernardLanguillier]

Dear Betterlight users,

According to your experience, what are the lenses delivering the highest possible image quality when used with better light scanning backs?

Applications would be architecture and landscape.

It seems that the Rodenstock APO Sironar digital 180mm f5.6 is an obvious candidate, what are the other ones?

All focal lengths welcome.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

[DanielStone]

I'd go with Rodenstock's APO ”Sironar-S” or Schneider's APO-Symmar/Symmar ”L” line of lenses.

I use Fujinon lenses myself with both 5x7 and 4x5, shooting primarily color film (transparency and negative). IMO, they're just as sharp as the German glass, and usually at a vastly lower pricepoint.

What FL of lenses are you looking for? I'm asking because I know an architectural shooter who kept a 450mm lens in their 4x5 kit when they shot jobs on film prior to going all digital. Not just wide angles...

Dan

[Kumar]

Hi Bernard,

Welcome to the joys (and frustrations!) of using the Betterlight. I'm glad you made the jump after spending so much time deliberating over it. The best lenses for the Betterlight, in my biased opinion, are the Apo-Sironars and Apo-Grandagons. The Apo-MacroSironar 180mm f/5.6 is brilliant. I have used almost all the corresponding Schneider lenses, and they have a "bite" that I don't particularly like. The latest digital lenses will not give you enough room for movements, and in many cases, may not even cover the format. Have you joined the Betterlight forum? Mike Collette made some tests a few years back, comparing various lenses, including the one you referred to. A search there would be fruitful, not only for this information, but also for other tips and tricks.

Best,
Kumar

Edit: If you are asking about the Apo-Sironar Digital lenses, I'm afraid I've not used any of them, mainly because of their small image circle. The Betterlight has a 9-micron pixel size that will do very well with analog lenses. There was a discussion some time ago on the Betterlight forum regarding the performance of digital vs. analog lenses - specifically the Apo-Sironars. The consensus was that the digital lenses are slightly better at wider apertures - typically f/8 or f/11, while the analog lenses are much better at smaller apertures. Also, the smaller image circles of the digital lenses will limit extensive movements.
So, if you want extensive movements with deep DOF, it might be better to use analog lenses.

[yaya]

It seems that the Rodenstock APO Sironar digital 180mm f5.6 is an obvious candidate

Whenever I see a Betterlight there is always a 180mm sitting in front of it, and it works great with 80MP backs as well

[BernardLanguillier]

Thank you gentlemen.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Paul Ozzello]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I'm really curious about these scanning backs, how does the betterlight compare to a 60-80MP back ? Is dynamic range the same ?  What about resolution ?

[BernardLanguillier]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I'm really curious about these scanning backs, how does the betterlight compare to a 60-80MP back ? Is dynamic range the same ?  What about resolution ?

In theory it should be like a Foveon with 3 times the resolution, meaning zero color artifacts.

It should be close in absolute quality to the latest backs.

But the main value for me is the size of the sensor and the ability to use large movements on my Ebony without color casts.

I don't expect any quality advantage compared to my stitches, but it will enable me to restart shooting 4x5 which is the only really fun camera I have ever used.

Unfortunately I discovered last night that my beloved (but long unused) Schneider 110mm XL had a cracked internal lens element and some light fogging (provably fungus)... total bummer, no idea when/how that happened (the cracked glass part). I suspect I must have either dropped it or that it may have happened during some cold shooting session back in the days.

Now I am facing a new question, what is the recommended glass in the 100-120mm range? I guess the answer will be... the Schneider 110mm XL? :-(

Cheers,
Bernard

[Harold Clark]

Too bad about the 110 XL, very strange this could happen without obvious physical damage, especially an internal element. I haven't used a scan back, but during careful lens testing with film the 110 XL proved to be an excellent performer, probably it would be as well with the Betterlight. My 135mm Rodenstock Apo Sironar is exceptional as well, maybe even a bit better than the 110XL.

[BernardLanguillier]

Too bad about the 110 XL, very strange this could happen without obvious physical damage, especially an internal element. I haven't used a scan back, but during careful lens testing with film the 110 XL proved to be an excellent performer, probably it would be as well with the Betterlight. My 135mm Rodenstock Apo Sironar is exceptional as well, maybe even a bit better than the 110XL.

I know, really disapointing to see such an amazing piece of glass in such a condition, not to mention the cost of replacement. Thanks for the tip on the 135mm Sironar. It is probably a bit long on the Betterlight though.

I don't remember dropping it, but shocks do happen when backpacking. It could be metal contraction since I have camped with it in -20C temperature when I was using the Ebony a lot.

Cheers,
Bernard

[DanielStone]

FYI Bernard:

The 110XL's are reputed to be "problem" lenses. Great when they're "fog" free and in good condition, but a real bad mark(IMO) on Schneider's part.

In the 110-120mm FL range, I'd go for any of the following:
•Schneider 120mm Super-Symmar HM
•Rodenstock APO-Sironar S / Sinaron-SE(Sinar's re-branded version of the same lens
•Nikkor-SW 120mm  f/8
•Fujinon-SW 125mm f/8

I've used the Fujinon, Nikkor and Super-Symmar HM, all shooting onto film.
IMO, the "sharpest" one of those 3 is the Super-Symmar HM. VERY sharp. However, I found it to be a bit "cold" in it's rendering.
Sharpness isn't everything(to me at least). I'm shooting onto film(chrome and neg), so I wanted a rendering that met my "wants", but also my needs. The Fujinon 125mm f/8 is what I went with, and it's one of my most used lenses for 5x7/4x5. Very very sharp, but has a nice "filmic" rendering to it. Slightly warmer cast IMO than the Schneider glass.

-Dan

[EricWHiss]

Sorry to hijack this thread but I'm really curious about these scanning backs, how does the betterlight compare to a 60-80MP back ? Is dynamic range the same ?  What about resolution ?

I'm really curious to see, and hope Bernard you will share some files and tell us your findings with us.

The Kodak specs for the sensors used in the scanning backs have higher values for DR - in some cases two stops or more so I'm guessing the DR is probably better? 
I do know from multishot backs, when you can get real data for each color, some kinds of noise is averaged out. My CF-528 gets about 1.5 stops more DR when used in microstep mode than in single shot mode.  Having real R, G, B data for each location definitely gives a resolution advantage, much crisper images and better tonality too.  The downside is you really see all of the CA your lenses have that the Bayer algorithm was hiding. Fortunately easily fixed in post.

Interesting to read the comments on the 135mm APO sironars...  I have one and wasn't really impressed, and will revisit that one.

[BernardLanguillier]

I'm really curious to see, and hope Bernard you will share some files and tell us your findings with us.

The Kodak specs for the sensors used in the scanning backs have higher values for DR - in some cases two stops or more so I'm guessing the DR is probably better?  
I do know from multishot backs, when you can get real data for each color, some kinds of noise is averaged out. My CF-528 gets about 1.5 stops more DR when used in microstep mode than in single shot mode.  Having real R, G, B data for each location definitely gives a resolution advantage, much crisper images and better tonality too.  The downside is you really see all of the CA your lenses have that the Bayer algorithm was hiding. Fortunately easily fixed in post.

Interesting to read the comments on the 135mm APO sironars...  I have one and wasn't really impressed, and will revisit that one.

I most certainly will Eric.

I have no particular expectations in terms of DR compared to my D800, but I may try to do a comparison, although these can be difficult to do accurately.  

First thing I need to do is to find a solution lenswise, because my Nikkor M 300mm f9 is great but a bit too long for general shooting.  

I have the opportunity to buy for ~400 US$ a Fujinon SWD 90mm f5.6, would that make any sense?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Kumar]

Too bad about your Schneider lens. Both the 80mm and 110mm XL lenses have the same "problem".
The Fujinons are very good too, with a slightly different color characteristic. I have a set of the older Fuji lenses with the lettering on the inside rim. The 125mm and 135mm are tiny and sharp gems, with enormous coverage. There's a ton of info on these lenses on LFF.

Kumar

[Harold Clark]

I most certainly will Eric.

I have no particular expectations in terms of DR compared to my D800, but I may try to do a comparison, although these can be difficult to do accurately.  

First thing I need to do is to find a solution lenswise, because my Nikkor M 300mm f9 is great but a bit too long for general shooting.  

I have the opportunity to buy for ~400 US$ a Fujinon SWD 90mm f5.6, would that make any sense?


My Nikkor 90mm f8 is also an excellent performer, rumors are that it is a bit sharper than the f4.5 version, but not sure if that is true. Fuji also makes a 105mm SWD but probably not as common as the 90 or 125.

[BernardLanguillier]

Quick updates on this, I found the following lenses second hand at good prices here in Tokyo and have decided to move forward:

- Fujinon SWD 90mm f5.6 as a generic wide(r) angle lens,
- Rodenstock APO Sironar Digital 150mm f5.6 as a bit of a speciality lens,

I am fully aware that the 150mm will not allow much movement at the optimal aperture of f11 at infinity (21/18mm only), but I am expecting this lens to deliver the best possible image quality out of the Betterlight when using it with moderate tilt at distances between 1 and 5 meters.

I am now looking for a Rodenstock APO Sironar S 210mm f5.6 to complement the line up as a generic longish landscape lens.  

Cheers,
Bernard

[Harold Clark]

Another option would be enlarging lenses or repro lenses in barrel mount ( G claron, Kowa graphic etc. ). These are cheap in barrel mount, since you don't need a shutter with the scan back.