Tech camera choices and back compatibility

[sarinale]

Hi, I am contemplating the addition of a technical camera to my arsenal.

I am looking for a camera that is relatively light and compact but has the ability to do shift of more than 15 mm plus tilt and swing (ideally also both together). I also would like to have wider lenses. My initial research tells me that the Arca swiss R3dmi or the Cambo DS wide would be suitable. I am sure there are other options (and hope to get some advice) but this is what I found out so far. The Arca Swiss seems the most complete system but the price is of concern for me.

I am also looking to upgrade to a more versatile back (used P40+ or P65+), especially if I invest in a tech camera. Currently I work with the Phase P30+ (Hasselblad H mount) and I really like the back. However, I believe that movements are not possible with this back due to the microlenses.

This week I got an offer to buy a Cambo wide DS with a Schneider 24 XL lens (which covers the size of the P45+ chip I believe and would only be a good idea if I upgrade to the P40+). Whilst this is not completely ideal I am tempted because (1) it is a good offer and much cheaper than the Arca Swiss and (2) I am hoping that the P30+ might work with this combination without movements (to be confirmed).

My questions are as follows:
- Has anybody tried the P30+ on a technical camera with ultra wide lenses (ideally the Schneider 24 XL)? Does this work without movements?
- What other options in the technical camera market meet my requirements?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond.
Kind regards,
Alex

[Doug Peterson]

I am looking for a camera that is relatively light and compact but has the ability to do shift of more than 15 mm plus tilt and swing (ideally also both together). I also would like to have wider lenses. My initial research tells me that the Arca swiss R3dmi or the Cambo DS wide would be suitable. I am sure there are other options (and hope to get some advice) but this is what I found out so far. The Arca Swiss seems the most complete system but the price is of concern for me.

It actually sounds like the Cambo Wide RC400 or Arca Swiss Factum would be better choices than their big-brother equivalents (the RM3Di and DS).

- Has anybody tried the P30+ on a technical camera with ultra wide lenses (ideally the Schneider 24 XL)? Does this work without movements?
- What other options in the technical camera market meet my requirements?

Do NOT go the route of a 30+ with a tech camera. Not even if your movements are going to be limited. Not even if you want to get your feet wet before making a larger investment. Just don't do it. Even if it meant you needed to "downgrade" to a P25+ or crossgrade to an Aptus II 7 it would make more sense than trying to do a tech camera with a P30+. Sorry if this reply lacks subtly,  but a P30+ with a tech camera is just not a good idea.

First here is a good overview of the big three tech camera systems. Of course as an overview there are nuances and details that are missed, and of course there are other players in this market (Sinar, Silvestri, Linhof etc); but the vast majority of the US market share is Arca, Cambo, and Alpa. A more complete breakdown of Arca Swiss and Cambo can be found on our website. A more complete breakdown of the other options would have to come elsewhere as we do not sell Alpa or the others.

When considering the price please remember:
- over the long run the lenses you buy will almost surely far outweigh the initial body/adapter-plate investment, so saving a bit of money but getting a platform that's not right for you is probably not a great decision. I'm not saying the DS+24 isn't right for you, it may be - or it may not be, but I always encourage buyers to FIRST figure out what system is best for them and THEN look for a good deal or way to make it fit your budget.
- a tech camera body, lacking any electronics, is very likely to be in your arsenal for a long time to come. Digital backs often remain in a photographers arsenal many years longer than a 35mm dSLR, but a tech camera is likely to be part of your kit even longer. So this is one of the most lasting choices you'll make. Pick the right system for you based on ALL the factors - budget of course must be one factor, but don't let it drive the decision disproportionally.
- some of the systems have higher entry prices (body+adapter) but lower per-lens cost. This is especially true if you want tilt on every lens, as Arca is the only system (of the big three) which includes tilt at no additional cost per lens and requires no separate adapter for tilt. Get pricing for what a body+adapter+accessories+lenses will be, even if you're only getting part of them now; that will give you a good idea of what - over the long run - you'll be spending.

Here is a visualizer that can help you understand coverage and lens selection and equivalencies. We can also have an in house tool for our customers that shows you equivalency, aspect ratio, and resolution when stitching within the image circle (i.e. how close is a 47XL with a 2-shot stitch to a 35XL with a single shot?).

[Chris Barrett]

Either P45+ or P65+ would be a great combination with the cam.  You want to avoid the micro lens backs and the Phase1's tend to work better with Tech Cams than Leaf or 'Blad.  Huge advantage to the P65+ is the Zero Latency feature which allows you to shoot without a wake-up cable.  It also has a larger sensor, not just MP but physically... making lenses effectively wider.  Of course the P45+ can give you really long exposures...

[JoeKitchen]

If you are thinking of going with the P65+, I would stay away from the SK 24mm; they discontinued it for a reason.  The image circle will not cover the P65+ and probably produce a wicked Lens Cast.  Also, you will get no movements or tilts.  

Considering you was to have tilt and swing, I would cancel out Alpa.  I believe that there is specific flange focal length that a lens has to have in order for it to be mounted with tilt/swing option.  Any lens can be mounted for the Cambo system to have tilt/swing.  (You should factor into the equation that in order to get tilt/swing on either of those two systems, the mounting cost is $2800 instead of $2100 for normal mounting.  The tilt/swing mount is not that popular, so if you get an used lens you will have to send it out at the same $2800 per lens price, to get tilt/swing).  

Personally, I use the RM3Di and find it fantastic; since I upgraded to it, I have not shot with another camera.  I really like that you do not need to pay extra for tilt/swing, and I use tilt/swing all that time.  However, it is one or the other, not both.  Also, it only cost about $1000 to have a lens mounted.  Another great thing about Arca is that they are the only plate camera manufacturer (easily accessible in the USA) that makes a bellows camera.  Any "R" mounted lens can be used on there plate camera with an adapter, which is pretty freaking cool!

In the end, it is personal choice though.  I recommend that you get your hands on all three systems and test them out.  

[gerald.d]

 

Considering you was to have tilt and swing, I would cancel out Alpa.  I believe that there is specific flange focal length that a lens has to have in order for it to be mounted with tilt/swing option, it is personal choice though.

That's a strange thing to say.

If you want tilt/swing on an Alpa, then simply buy any of the lenses available in either SB17 (the SB stands for short barrel) or SB34 mounts, and a T/S adapter.

You can use a single adapter with all your short barrel lenses.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

[yaya]

and the Phase1's tend to work better with Tech Cams than Leaf

Where did you get that from Chris?

[sarinale]

Thanks for the very knowledgeable replies. I will think about my choices once more.

So far, I think the Arca Swiss R system is my favorite, although it seems that tilt and swing at the same time will only be possible by turning this into a view camera with bellows adapter etc. Is this correct?

Alpa is outside my price range (considering that you pay for tilt/swing with every lens). The fact that the tilt or swing mechanism is independent of the lens mount seems to be a unique Arca Swiss feature.

[sarinale]

Another question: Is anybody using a Cambo system (wide DS)? I would be interested in user feedback?

[JoeKitchen]

That's a strange thing to say.

If you want tilt/swing on an Alpa, then simply buy any of the lenses available in either SB17 (the SB stands for short barrel) or SB34 mounts, and a T/S adapter.

You can use a single adapter with all your short barrel lenses.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

Yes, but I thought some of the wide angles were only available in the normal mount due to their short flange focal length.  I could be wrong here, though. 

[Martin Kristiansen]

I am using the Cambo Ultima with a Leaf Aptus 12R. Can't therefore speak with any authority on the Wide DS, or is it RS but anyway here is my insight and or workflow.

I bought the Aptus 12R as an upgrade to the Aptus 7. It is a hard working back in my studio and gets used when clients get funny about how they need super High Res. Personally I don't think it is needed as often as my clients insist but I charge for it and the back paid its way years ago. In the studio I use it on an AFI.

The real reason I have this back is for my own pleasure shooting my own private work where I like to work on monorail cameras. As with a lot of us older guys we have a film background and I think a lot of us are comfortable with tech cameras. I use the Aptus back on the Cambo Ultima for 90% of my personal work, in and out studio. I have 4 lenses all Schneider ApoDigitars ranging from 47 to 180. Think it's a 180 anyway. I am not a big lens user and prefer my standard lens using other focal lengths rarely. I shoot a lens cal file on anything shorter than a 90 even when not using movements. When using movements I shoot cal files with every lens. They are easy to shoot and easy to use in Leaf Capture but they are vital.

I don't stitch, although stitching is very easy on these cameras. I don't focus stack, I use movements and aperture to control focus. I don't shoot HDR, I use a a spot meter and carefully check my histogram and the meter to get correct exposures. I focus on the ground glass using a magnifier as I have always done with these types of cameras. I have calibrated the camera using the adobe software. I process in LR and PS CC with a visit to Leaf Capture to apply the lens calibration file. If processing takes more than about 15 minutes I chuck it and move on. I do my own retouching commercially and am very fast with the software and know what I want. I am not prepared to hammer the file into shape. It either works or it doesn't.

The Cambo is a heavy bastard and requires a heavy tripod. I carry it in a backpack style bag and although 52 have no issues carrying it many km in the mountains. Neither the back or the camera has ever given me any trouble. It is usually hot, high and dusty where I shoot. Storms are frequent. In Lesotho sub zero temperatures are common and it is high, around 10 000 ft.

The thing with these cameras is they are quite slow but practice and you will surprise people how quickly you can get a shot done. I have had many people tell me you can't focus using my system and I disagree. Sometimes I do miss but very rarely. I stick my head under a home made dark cloth and immerse myself in the process. It is a system that will not suit everyone. It takes lots of sacrifices financially and physically but it gives me pleasure like little else and I produce lovely large prints without any stress.

The reason for this essay? For me there is a pleasure in using my system that goes far beyond the excitement of pixel counts, dynamic range and all the rest of the stuff that dictates my workflows when shooting for clients. I know the system and have full confidence that I can realize my vision with it. Since the OP was asking about backs and cameras and compatibility and Cambo I thought this info might be useful in ways other than the technical. Technical is great, don't get me wrong, but it is just the beginning of the journey and can distract you into endless testing, refining and tweaking to the point that you never focus on the next step, learning to get the most out of the combination of yourself and your equipment.

Sermon over. Promise.

[Ken Doo]

.... For me there is a pleasure in using my system that goes far beyond the excitement of pixel counts, dynamic range and all the rest of the stuff that dictates my workflows when shooting for clients. I know the system and have full confidence that I can realize my vision with it. Since the OP was asking about backs and cameras and compatibility and Cambo I thought this info might be useful in ways other than the technical. Technical is great, don't get me wrong, but it is just the beginning of the journey and can distract you into endless testing, refining and tweaking to the point that you never focus on the next step, learning to get the most out of the combination of yourself and your equipment.
....

+1.

And if you want relatively light and portable, it's definitely the Cambo WRS (not the old DS) models that you want to look at....

ken 

[pemihan]

+1

+1.

And if you want relatively light and portable, it's definitely the Cambo WRS (not the old DS) models that you want to look at....

ken 

[gerald.d]

Yes, but I thought some of the wide angles were only available in the normal mount due to their short flange focal length.  I could be wrong here, though. 

Yes, on the Rodenstocks, the short barrel mounts start with the 32HR. I could be wrong, but isn't this where viable T/S starts with wide-angle tech lenses?

As you rightly say, the Schneider 24 was discontinued for a reason.

Does the Rodie 23HR provide acceptable results when tilted or swung on the RM3Di?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

[gerald.d]

Alpa is outside my price range (considering that you pay for tilt/swing with every lens).

You don't.

You buy the short barrel lenses, and use one adapter.

32HR, 40HR, 70HR are SB17s. 50HR, 90HR are SB34s.

Buy the 17mm T/S adapter to use with the first 3 on its own. Add the 17mm multi-use adapter into the mix to use the same T/S adapter with the 50 and 90.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

[JoeKitchen]

Yes, on the Rodenstocks, the short barrel mounts start with the 32HR. I could be wrong, but isn't this where viable T/S starts with wide-angle tech lenses?

As you rightly say, the Schneider 24 was discontinued for a reason.

Does the Rodie 23HR provide acceptable results when tilted or swung on the RM3Di?

Kind regards,

Gerald.

I am not sure what the results would be with the Rodie 23mm with tilt or swing is used. I have never used that lens and have no intention of buying it.  Plus, the wider the lens, the larger depth of field; so using the t/s for focus recovery would not be needed. 

The Rodies do work well with the Alpas and can be mounted to work with the t/s adapter, but the Rodies are retro focal in their design.  If you would like to use the symmetrical Schneiders, then I believe the shortest focal length where you can get a short barrel mount is in the 50s.  Once again, I do not use the system and I am not totally sure on what flange focal length you need for the short mount.  I do know however, that a couple of the lenses I wanted could not be mounted for an Alpa for the t/s adapter, which is one of the reasons I did not go with Alpa. 

[Doug Peterson]

Yes, on the Rodenstocks, the short barrel mounts start with the 32HR. I could be wrong, but isn't this where viable T/S starts with wide-angle tech lenses?

As you rightly say, the Schneider 24 was discontinued for a reason.

Does the Rodie 23HR provide acceptable results when tilted or swung on the RM3Di?

t/s is viable and useful (depending on sensor size and resolution) with the following lenses which are able to be tilt/swung on Arca but not Alpa:
- 23HR
- 28HR
- 28XL
- 35XL
- 43XL
- 47XL

The wider you get the more one degree of swing or tilt moves the plane of focus, so with a 23HR and a p40+ you can tilt and swing and shift and rise on an Arca, useful indeed! Even on a full frame sensor the small amount of tilt you can get (before straining the image circle) can still be useful in specific situations. Even 1 degree with a 23HR is a strong effect.

Full tilt swing compatibility chart, including Cambo, here:
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-overview

[Paul2660]

I have used the 28mm Rodenstock now for over a year on a rm3di, I can clearly state that just 1/2 to 3/4 of 1 degree of tilt can make a big difference.  Depending on the scene, you can have DOP ranging from around 11 feet to infinity.  Obviously your top of the frame will suffer, however if it's only sky, then to me it's not a problem.  The tilt feature on the 28mm can give you DOF on the foreground that is very impressive. 

Sadly shifting the 28mm is not that great as the best you can get is around 7mm on a 60mp sensor.  You hit the internal disc (or whatever Rodenstock puts in there to let you know you have reached the edge of the image circle that creates a hard vignette) and at around 5mm you start to get a white ring from the penumbra of the image circle.  This seems to be made a bit worse by the use the physical CF on the 28mm. 

Paul Caldwell