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Author Topic: Won Over to the Cloudy Side  (Read 15942 times)

jerome_m

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Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« on: September 13, 2013, 03:01:25 am »

I only have one comment on the Article by Michael Reichmann. The article writes, near the end:

Quote
how we each spend out money is always a personal decision

Indeed. I don't mind the cloud. I mind photoshop being a de facto monopoly and Adobe taking the decision on how I spend out my money out of my hands. This is all I have to say.
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Cem

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 05:12:49 am »

I agree with you Jerome. I, too, don't mind the cloud and people are free to subscribe to it or not. What I do mind is the absence of a alternative solution from Adobe for those who prefer not to use the subscription model.
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currymac

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 06:33:43 am »

I might not mind the concept of a subscription IF there was a way out in the future, but in CC's case there isn't... and Adobe knows it. Once you move to CC you're locked in... forever. Should you ever decide to leave, all your converted files will be compromised to say the least. Yes, at the moment you could open them in another application and get at the image, but you wouldn't have the layers or the ability to go back in stages... and I suspect it will only get worse. This is like only backing up jpeg versions of my RAWs. My images are simply too important. I need options. No CC for me! Fortunately I rarely use any of Adobe's products anyway. My workflow is Aperture/NIK and I only need to use Photoshop on very rare occasions... far too rare to waste $10/month.
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Isaac

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 10:15:04 am »

My images are simply too important. I need options.

So you've created a vendor independent archive of flattened TIFF images, right?
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SunnyUK

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 11:36:56 am »

Fortunately Adobe is far from having a monopoly in pixel editing. There are plenty of alternatives. Maybe not so elegant. Maybe not as smart. But being the best is NOT the same as having a monopoly. So whether we like it or not, Adobe is free to change their charging mechanism any which way they want.

(I also don't like having to sign up to a subscription-only model, but I will do it when their offer launches next week, because for me the benefits outweighs the downsides)
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graphius

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 11:43:22 am »

I think the Adobe Cloud is the best thing to happen to creative software in a long time. It has opened the door to more competition.
I think in the next 5 years or so, there will be more variety of excellent programs. It will no longer be a case of, "If you are serious you have to use Photoshop"
Maybe we can even get rid of the verb "Photoshopping"  ;D
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 12:28:42 pm »

(I also don't like having to sign up to a subscription-only model, but I will do it when their offer launches next week, because for me the benefits outweighs the downsides)

Hi,

I'm wondering. Why rush into the situation, when postponing the decision can only improve the situation?

Cheers,
Bart
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alainbriot

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 01:13:07 pm »

Hi,

I'm wondering. Why rush into the situation, when postponing the decision can only improve the situation?

Cheers,
Bart

Because I need to use Photoshop CC, Lightroom 5 and all the other apps now and because the special offer ended at the end of August?

So I subscribed to the 'All Apps' Cloud option for $20 a month.  To me this is a worthwhile offer.  But then I am a professional and need these apps to run my business.

Just my 2 cents.

Alain
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Alain Briot
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Colorado David

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 01:37:16 pm »

There is not a day that goes by when I don't use Adobe After Effects.  My business doesn't work (well) without it.  I may be forced over the edge.

alainbriot

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 02:15:01 pm »

If you do the math, $20 a month x18 ($360) for a 1 year 'All Apps' Cloud Subscription (18 months was the rotation time between new versions in the 'sofware you own' days) is less expensive than what the packaged software used to cost.  But then we are locked on 'forever' or we lose access and that is not so good...
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Alain Briot
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graphius

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 05:01:51 pm »

Quote
If you do the math, $20 a month x18 ($360) for a 1 year 'All Apps' Cloud Subscription (18 months was the rotation time between new versions in the 'sofware you own' days) is less expensive than what the packaged software used to cost.  But then we are locked on 'forever' or we lose access and that is not so good...

As long as you upgrade with each incarnation...

I usually skipped one or two, often more because there were not enough new features to justify the cost.
If I was teaching photoshop, or I trusted Adobe to come up with many new features on a regular basis, it might be worth it.
Personally I am sticking to CS5 and LR5 until I find a suitable alternative.
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alainbriot

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 05:18:19 pm »

Correct.  I did upgrade for each new version though so it is worth it for me.
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Alain Briot
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image66

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 05:59:34 pm »

Considering that CC is less expensive than continual upgrades and everybody here has pretty much kept up with most of the upgrades, I'm at a loss to see the downside. If you cease to upgrade, you'll be hosed soon enough when you go to upgrade your computer and find that the latest Apple doesn't support anything over two years old.

I understand the philosophical issues involved, but philosophy and reality are two different things to us photographers.

Most professional photographers will photoshop an image till it's done, make the prints (or whatever the output is) and rarily, if ever revisit it again. And if we do revisit it, it's because we want to make it better, somehow, which usually means undergoing an all new raw conversion which means a whole new post processing effort. The fact we might lose all our editing layers may not mean much in reality.

Besides, as someone else noted, CC may be just what is needed to get other vendors to step up their game.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 09:40:01 pm »

If you do the math, $20 a month x18 ($360) for a 1 year 'All Apps' Cloud Subscription (18 months was the rotation time between new versions in the 'sofware you own' days) is less expensive than what the packaged software used to cost.  But then we are locked on 'forever' or we lose access and that is not so good...
sounds great.  Where did you get a $20 for all apps offer?  best offer I've seen is one year introductory offer at 29.95/mth, which then goes to standard 49.95/mth.  I've been on this for a year and now am at the 49.95 price.  So the math is $30x18=$540, followed by $50x18 = $900.  The $20 is for one app.

For anyone using multiple programs this model is terrific.  For those using only one or two, maybe not so good. 
I usually skipped one or two, often more because there were not enough new features to justify the cost.

I think this pushed Adobe to the subscription model. Adobe spends some development money to maintain some older versions (they just updated CS6) for a while through hardware and OS upgrades , printer driver changes etc, and I think to some degree forces the development budget to focus on gee whiz features to help sell an upgrade, perhaps at the expense of really useful things that aren't as flashy.  Eventually  hardware and OS changes will break CS3, 4, 5 and at some point in the future 6, at that point they will be focused on a single version. Of course the other problem is quite obvious, they had trouble monetizing major upgrades because the adoption rate was unreliable(a big problem for all software companies )

I might not mind the concept of a subscription IF there was a way out in the future, but in CC's case there isn't... and Adobe knows it.
I think the CC model is pretty logical.  They seemed to do what most big companies do and fail to implement it well, in this case I don't think they considered the huge disparity of the user base in how many apps they actually use ... the all inclusive model really isn't appealing to some users (although it certainly is appealing to many).  But if you want to get off the bus (a term I saw in one of the many other threads on this) it isn't any different at all than deciding to not use Photoshop or Lightroom with the perpetual license model. Everyone argues this point but it doesn't apply at all.  As long as you want to use Layered PSD's and tiffs with Adobe proprietary technology, you keep buying photoshop whether it is a perpetual or subscription model.  Opting out results in the same thing, you need to save flattened tiffs that are non proprietary.  This seems to be everyones biggest complaint, yet it really isn't a CC issue.  Nothing changes with the subscription model ... just like a perpetual license you pay as long as you want to use it (eventually you will have to upgrade because eventually it will break) and when you no longer want to use it, you have to flatten your files and move to something else.  The only difference is opting out of a perpetual model means it may be some time before things break to the point you can't use them, where as opting out of CC means it breaks the next month.  But you would need to plan for either case, and the path out is the same.

As far as non competition argument, I'm not sure how that's Adobe's fault.  Seems they are just doing what they do, and managed to create some really great apps that are widely used.  The challenge for any new company is to really create something compelling enough to switch.  Microsoft Office has lost some market share because it became too overwhelming and others have created useful tools that are simpler and do enough for what people want, but the power users stay with Word and Excel.  Same thing here ... there are many other options that are simpler and easier to use, but most on this forum are really in the power user category, a smaller market and not very appealing to many developing new software. 
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alainbriot

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 09:57:52 pm »

I just checked my invoice and I am paying $19.95/month, $21.25 with tax, for the entire suite.  It will go up after the first year they say.  A great deal compared to the previous upgrade model. I was a CS6 Suite owner so I may have got an additional discount for that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 11:21:19 pm by alainbriot »
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Alain Briot
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jerome_m

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2013, 03:29:34 am »

Fortunately Adobe is far from having a monopoly in pixel editing. There are plenty of alternatives. Maybe not so elegant. Maybe not as smart. But being the best is NOT the same as having a monopoly.

Define monopoly. Adobe has a monopoly on pixel editing in the same sense that Microsoft has a monopoly on word processing and spreadsheets. There are better and cheaper word processors than MS Word, but they are not used in work environments. If you want a job as secretary, they will not ask you "can you use a word processor?, but "can you use MS Word?". Conversely, all courses and books are geared toward that software, all plugins and templates and are for that software and if your firm needs a custom solution, it will be built around MS Word.

The same exists with Photoshop. One can edit pixels without PS, sure. If one needs professional features (like 16 bits editing, color calibration, LAB mode, etc...), the competition becomes scarce. If, in addition, one is dependent of commercial plugins or want to ensure 100% compatibility with large print shops, the competition is even scarcer. More importantly, courses for future graphic designers are almost only available on Adobe products and a person with expertise about anything else will always be perceived as a non-pro in the graphics industry.

Your perception of PS not being a monopoly may come from the fact that photographers who sell prints or finished files are the least concerned by this problem, since their customers rarely ask what software they used for editing (yet they are still constrained by an environment only developing courses and plugins for PS). If you were looking for a job as a graphic editor, your opinion would probably be different.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 03:50:40 am »

...The only difference is opting out of a perpetual model means it may be some time before things break to the point you can't use them, where as opting out of CC means it breaks the next month.  But you would need to plan for either case, and the path out is the same.
And I think you'd have to accept that this isn't a small difference. I'd agree about the OS eventually breaking Photoshop, but that might be years later, and ceasing to use a program isn't a sudden thing that's the same as it ceasing to work. Even if you no longer use Photoshop CSx, you retain the freedom to rework aspects of images and will probably do so occasionally - after all, it's quicker and cheaper than learning to fix the same problem is some other program. The subscription-limited Photoshop removes that tail off - you just fall over the edge.
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jerome_m

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 04:59:04 am »

And I think you'd have to accept that this isn't a small difference. I'd agree about the OS eventually breaking Photoshop, but that might be years later, and ceasing to use a program isn't a sudden thing that's the same as it ceasing to work. Even if you no longer use Photoshop CSx, you retain the freedom to rework aspects of images and will probably do so occasionally - after all, it's quicker and cheaper than learning to fix the same problem is some other program. The subscription-limited Photoshop removes that tail off - you just fall over the edge.

My experience has been that the OS breaks programs in less than 10 years. For example, on modern macs, CS2 will not run, because the powerPC programs are not supported any more. With the "buy" model, I can keep an old mac around with an old OS if I ever need to access some old files. I actually did exactly that to access some old Corel Draw files (not supported any more on the Mac): if I need an old file, I fire up the old Mac and convert the file to Illustrator to access it. I can't do that on a subscription based model, I would have had to make sure all my files were converted before moving on.

It is not impossible to move on in subscription based model of course, but it is considerably more effort.
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David Watson

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2013, 01:07:01 pm »

I just checked my invoice and I am paying $19.95/month, $21.25 with tax, for the entire suite.  It will go up after the first year they say.  A great deal compared to the previous upgrade model. I was a CS6 Suite owner so I may have got an additional discount for that.


Just done the same.  I think it's a great deal if, and it is a big if, like me you keep your OS, hardware and applications completely up-to-date.  Like another poster, however, I keep my old Macs, in a nice dry store room.  Having used Macs professionally since 1990 and kept them all it means that I can resurrect files and programmes such as Macwrite as needed .  Now where did I put that floppy disc drive..... LOL
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David Watson ARPS

john beardsworth

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Re: Won Over to the Cloudy Side
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2013, 01:27:26 pm »

I think it's a great deal if, and it is a big if, like me you keep your OS, hardware and applications completely up-to-date. 
As someone who does do so (having the CS6 suite), I looked closely at the deal. Continued upgrades would cost me about £1400 over the next 6 years, compared with paying £3000 in subscriptions.
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