Canon 300gsm Heavyweight Photo Paper discontinued?

[narikin]

It seems that Canon have discontinued their 300gsm heavyweight photo paper, at least in USA. Does anyone know if this is correct?  There was no announcement from Canon.

Its a real shame if so - the paper was good value, a real heavyweight, nice surface with a great gamut and best of all: 100years+ life in Aardenburg testing.

Damn. Didn't even give us time to stock up. 

[Ernst Dinkla]

It is a shame. That information became available a year ago I guess, maybe not a Canon announcement then either. The European Canon Glacier has a lot in common but some slight differences that one can find in the data sheet specs.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[Czornyj]

Glacier is also discontinued, and I also can't get over it. Tried many other ~300gsm lustre papers, but didn't really find anything that's close enough.

[narikin]

Its rather odd if it was stopped a year ago in Europe, as I was buying it still in decent quantities/sizes up till 8 months ago in the US.

What do people think of the Canon Satin 240gsm weight that is still available? Is should be very similar but on a thinner base? Ernst your Spectra Viz shows it with a similar plot but but bigger bump from OBAs, and of course a bit less opacity

(BTW, I'm not so surprised, Canon could never figure out the shipping of the large heavy 300gsm x100ft rolls in USA, a 60" roll of that weight & length is very heavy, so they always arrived damaged from Ground Shipping. It was an endless run around of returns and replacements, that... also arrived damaged!  1 of 3 would get through at best. They must have lost a lot of money due to poor packaging and shipping)

A possible alternative: Moab Lasal Photo Exhibition Luster 300gsm ?  Much pricier than Canons stock, but I think maybe the same base? Sadly with much higher OBAs though. And they don't make it in 60" width which is a size I use a lot.

[smjphoto]

I have been using Lexjet Sunset Photo eSatin Paper 300g as a replacement for the canon HWsatin. I'm generally pleased with it, but have done no one-to-one comparisons. Does anyone know if these are basically the same paper or different, as far as gamut, brightness, OBAs, longevity...? At $ 0.62 /sq ft it seems reasonable for a 300g satin paper. It is also available in 60" rolls.

[Ernst Dinkla]

What do people think of the Canon Satin 240gsm weight that is still available? Is should be very similar but on a thinner base? Ernst your Spectra Viz shows it with a similar plot but but bigger bump from OBAs, and of course a bit less opacity

A possible alternative: Moab Lasal Photo Exhibition Luster 300gsm ?  Much pricier than Canons stock, but I think maybe the same base? Sadly with much higher OBAs though. And they don't make it in 60" width which is a size I use a lot.

Several Canon RC qualities show more or less identical spectral plots but are lower in weight. The discontinued (3 years ago) Moab Lasal Photo Luster RC 270gsm has an identical spectral plot to the Canon Glacier, the Moab Lasal Photo Exhibition Luster 300gsm differs a lot on the spectral plot though. Bonjet Graphic Photo Satin Warmtone 250 gsm comes close. HP Universal and Sihl Maranello, both at 200 gsm approx have a similar plot. There is no resemblance to existing Felix Schoeller,  Mitsubishi, Olmec (former ICI) products. I do not have samples of the recent Fuji line, only old ones.

As before: send complaints to Canon. Give the link to the A-I test that shows it is the exception in cool (RC) papers as it stands time without major paper white shifts and keeps (Canon) inks well through time too. This list as a whole could send a request to bring it back in the Canon catalog.

I have no samples of Lexjet so can not compare.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[narikin]

\
As before: send complaints to Canon. Give the link to the A-I test that shows it is the exception in cool (RC) papers as it stands time without major paper white shifts and keeps (Canon) inks well through time too. This list as a whole could send a request to bring it back in the Canon catalog.

I have no samples of Lexjet so can not compare.

Luckily I found a roll of 60" and a roll of 44" Heavyweight 300gsm stored at the back of my studio yesterday, (thought they were just empty boxes!) so I'm saved for a little while.  Will probably use the 240gsm version for tests and proofs for now.  Canson Platine is my next option, which they have released in the 60" width thankfully. A lot more money, but good longevity too.

I have never used Lexjet papers either, but will also try to get a sample. If I can get one for Ernst/Spectra Viz I will send on.

Anyone got the right email at Canon to bring this to their attention?  The phone 'help' I got was pointless - knew little about their own products.

[Czornyj]

Platine is not even close, it's much warmer and much, much, much more expansive.

We could make a post with a petition, sign it and send to Canon LFP management, but I doubt it will bring us Glacier / HW Satin back.

[MHMG]

It would be some consolation if the Canon Satin 240 gsm had the same coating chemistry as the HW Satin 300gsm, but based on the samples I have on hand in a Canon sample book, the 240 gsm, though similar in texture, is definitely a different formulation and with more OBA. Would have to be tested to see how it fares in LF resistance. Too bad about the HW Satin 300gsm also because it appears to be one of the best RC papers I've tested in terms of LIPES (light induced post exposure staining). This is a phenomenon I have been researching this past year to figure out a proper formal test method for it, but basically it's an increased yellowish staining that occurs in subsequent dark storage conditions but brought about by a prior light exposure cycle of sufficient magnitude. It is to some extent reversible by further light exposure, but what intensity and magnitude is needed to keep the problem in check is not clear to me at this time.  Best to choose papers that don't have the problem at all (non RC papers for the most part). It seems many if not all RC papers have the LIPES issue at least to some degree. Again, in that regard the HW Satin 300 was among the best RC papers I've tested in terms of LIPES resistance as well! (better than other popular favorites like Epson Premium Luster). I suspect the industry could easily reverse engineer what chemical components in the RC formulation are causing the problem if the industry cared to address it. I can see why it's been overlooked by manufacturers to date. LIPES would be a field failure that customers wouldn't experience for quite a while, especially for prints on continual display, but as those light exposed prints get retired to dark storage, the issue then starts to manifest itself within a few months. Prints in dark storage may also exhibit other thermally induced yellowing issues over time, but LIPES yellowing would have an undesirable additive effect over and above any thermally induced yellowing.  One has to go back and check previously light faded samples a few months after ending the light exposure tests to inspect for this problem or set up special high/low intensity test cycles that most testing labs would probably not think to do.  I suspect the LIPES staining may be related to various anti oxidants added to the PE layers to keep the PE from embrittlement/cracking over time, but again, with willingness from the manufacturers, I suspect the problem chemistry could be easily identified and the problem reduced or eliminated.

Donations to the Printmakers' Testing fund at AaI&A have dwindled significantly in the last year, but if Ernst and others on this forum would like to draw up a wish list of other RC papers to get into LF testing, I will try to expedite those choices into LF testing once more funding becomes available.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Czornyj]

This is a phenomenon I have been researching this past year to figure out a proper formal test method for it, but basically it's an increased yellowish staining that occurs in subsequent dark storage conditions but brought about by a prior light exposure cycle of sufficient magnitude.

Interesting! Does LIPES occur mostly by the edges of a sheet? If yes, I observed it several times, and it always made me scraching my head. The first sheet in a box that had frequent contact with light got yellow stains on the edges, even in a closed box.

My suspision was that it has something to do with air pollution or acidic environment - for example it occured in sampler where a sample sheet was in contact with self-adhesive media, but maybe it's only a coincidence?

As for the RC testing, I'm still looking for my Glacier/HW Satin-like Holy Grail, but didn't find anything similar yet.

[MHMG]

Interesting! Does LIPES occur mostly by the edges of a sheet? If yes, I observed it several times, and it always made me scraching my head. The first sheet in a box that had frequent contact with light got yellow stains on the edges, even in a closed box.

My suspision was that it has something to do with air pollution or acidic environment - for example it occured in sampler where a sample sheet was in contact with self-adhesive media, but maybe it's only a coincidence?

As for the RC testing, I'm still looking for my Glacier/HW Satin-like Holy Grail, but didn't find anything similar yet.

The light induced staining covers wherever the light exposure occurred, so for most prints, uniformly in the white and highlight areas of the previously exposed image area. However, if prints were in a stack on a table, for example, it might manifest only at the edges and taper off. I'm still trying to determine minimum required doses and reciprocity behavior (light intensity x time relationships) needed to trigger the effect. That said, I think what you are observing is more related to ozone and other airborne pollutants. I've seen this gas induced staining on many non RC media whereas LIPES seems to be an RC media issue only, at least as far as I've documented so far.

Canon HW Satin 300gsm was my "go to" RC paper as well, so I"m also looking for a suitable replacement. I want to round up more RC papers to test for my own uses including some of the proofing varieties that have no OBA count. I"m glad to open up my search process to suggestions from the LULA printing forum as well.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[tastar]

How about Hahnemuhle Photo Luster - at this link on the Hahnemuhle USA website. The USA site lists it at 290gsm, the worldwide site lists it at 260gsm. We have a data sheet on our website for the 290gsm version at this link (I couldn't find it on the Hahnemuhle USA site).

The description from the USA data sheet:

"Hahnemuhle Photo Luster 290 is a microporous, resin coated photo paper with a beautiful luster surface, high opacity, excellent rigidity, bright white with very consistent flatness. Compatible with pigmented and dye inkjet systems."

It's available in 17, 24 and 44 inch rolls and standard sheet sizes, and seems to be only a little more expensive than Epson Premium Luster Photo 260. We haven't run any test prints, so I can't speak to it's quality, but the print samples that Hahnemuhle provides are great as usual.

Tony

[MHMG]

How about Hahnemuhle Photo Luster - at this link on the Hahnemuhle USA website. The USA site lists it at 290gsm, the worldwide site lists it at 260gsm. We have a data sheet on our website for the 290gsm version at this link (I couldn't find it on the Hahnemuhle USA site).

Thanks for info. I went to the USA site and ordered a free sample book. I have an older sample book from Hahnemuhle, but the RC papers weren't part of the HN media lineup at the time that older sampler book was made. Suffice to say, the HN RC offerings are likely nothing more than rebadged product from other manufacturers we've already seen from one vendor or another. I doubt that Hahnemuhle delivers HN manufactured paper base stock to a coating subcontractor who then adds the PE and image receptor coatings under contract to Hahnemuhle, but perhaps a senior HN sales manager will correct me if I'm wrong.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Ernst Dinkla]

Thanks for info. I went to the USA site and ordered a free sample book. I have an older sample book from Hahnemuhle, but the RC papers weren't part of the HN media lineup at the time that older sampler book was made. Suffice to say, the HN RC offerings are likely nothing more than rebadged product from other manufacturers we've already seen from one vendor or another. I doubt that Hahnemuhle delivers HN manufactured paper base stock to a coating subcontractor who then adds the PE and image receptor coatings under contract to Hahnemuhle, but perhaps a senior HN sales manager will correct me if I'm wrong.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Yes, Mitsubishi most likely. I added the HM RC spectral plots six weeks ago. The same spectral plots I see in some RC papers from Mitsubishi, Red River, Olmec and more brands. High OBA content, Lab b-9.

I think many brands have a mix of RC papers from Mitsubishi, Schoeller, FujiFilm in their catalog. There are more varieties from other manufacturers but they are not that widespread in other brands. The RC paper base range will be even more limited in variety, coating plants however create more diversity in inkjet coatings on top of that RC paper base range.

If you are going to test more RC papers I would say that weights like 250-330 gsm are worth it for the users that are interested in longevity. A selection of qualities that at least differ on spectral plots may be wise though papers with identical spectral plots could still give different longevity results. Then there is the uncertainty whether the paper is still available next year, Canon Heavyweight was a product of a company that did not go belly up but Ilford Smooth etc may disappear when Ilford collapses. I am interested in the Epson Proofing White Semimatt as a non-OBA paper but I understand it has limited usability for many photographers.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

[narikin]

All very interesting. Thank you Mark for adding your thoughts and opinions. Sorry to hear your funding has slowed. It is great work you are doing I certainly contribute every year, and value your efforts. Please anyone reading this - make  small contribution as we all benefit tremendously from Aardenberg's information.

Is the "LIPES" yellowing similar to what you see in photography book pages, where there is a clear yellowing at the edges where the air/light reaches in? I imagine it is from from the OBAs burning out & yellowing in conjunction with the air.  Many great photo books over the last 15 years were printed on highly OBA rich papers, and are suffering already. It's a serious problem.

Ernst - so in your great Spectra Viz sleuthing, you are not finding the major motherload manufacturer of Canons Heavyweight - like Fuji or Mitsubishi or Schoeller?  It appears to have no exact replacement or equal. Epson Premium Luster 260 is nowhere near as good, despite promising archival allusions.  I am sad to hear the 240gsm Canon appears to have a different coating formulation. It is quite affordable.  I think I may have to shoulder the cost and loss of white point and go over to Platine. Which is a whole other type of paper, but Mark bringing dark yellowing into the mix, means I can't take that risk, at least for fine art selling.  

ps Ernst: what is the problem with 'Epson Proofing White Semimatt' ? - It sounds great but you imply photographers may not like it? Great gamut, no OBAs, affordable...

Thanks all.

(BTW, I get confused by the 'Exposure' part of that LIPES acronym, as I think of darkroom paper/film, not inkjet. When I concentrate I realize you mean light exposure, but being photography based, we tend to think in the old ways! Is there a better term to insert into an acronym?!)

[Czornyj]

AFAIK Canon Photo Glacier was manufactured by Tecco, but unfortunately there's nothing similar in their own product line, with Tecco Production Semiglossy 300gsm being the closest, but not an exact match.

[MHMG]

Is the "LIPES" yellowing similar to what you see in photography book pages, where there is a clear yellowing at the edges where the air/light reaches in? I imagine it is from from the OBAs burning out & yellowing in conjunction with the air.  Many great photo books over the last 15 years were printed on highly OBA rich papers, and are suffering already. It's a serious problem...

(BTW, I get confused by the 'Exposure' part of that acronym, as I think of darkroom paper/film, not inkjet. When I concentrate I realize you mean light exposure, but being photography based, we tend to think in the old ways! Is there a better term to insert into an acronym?!)

Not a big fan of this acronym myself, but I coudn't think of a better one. I'm open to suggestions.  If I'd called it simply LIDSS for "light induced dark storage staining" I thought it would really confuse people since dark storage begets no light and vice versa!. So, to cause the problem first comes the light exposure, then a dark or low light storage period follows. Hence a "Post-exposure" staining event. Yet one factor in this phenomenon which complicates things is the fact that returning the stained sample to a display condition with sufficient light intensity will bleach the stain and thus mostly if not completely reverse it, i.e, samples that have this behavior are subject to a reversible and repeatable stain-bleach-stain kind of environmental cycle. The challenge is then to figure out the reciprocity behavior. In other words, is there some medium or low light intensity level on display the keeps the additional staining at bay, and similarly is there some lower light level where the light exposure accumulates to promote the stain reaction but is insufficient enough to generate enough bleaching reaction such that noticeably increasing stain levels in real world display conditions may occur which we aren't documenting in typical high intensity light fade tests? That's where more research is needed. In the meantime, my only recommendation for printmakers concerned with "archival paper" selection is that I haven't seen the LIPES problem yet on any non RC media, even ones with high OBAs. So, I tend to think the issue is related to other chemistry incorporated in RC papers (e.g., the anti-oxidants used to counter the well known TiO2-induced PE layer embrittlement/cracking problem). That said, if OBAs are also incorporated in the PE layers, then there could be PE/TIO2/OBA/antioxidant connected reactions which obviously wouldn't occur with media that have no PE layers.

it will be good to test a mostly non OBA containing RC proofing paper like the Espon semimatte proofing paper Ernst recommended to determine if it is free of LIPES. I say "mostly no OBA" because the RC proofing papers I have in my sample book do exhibit OBA containing paper cores even though top coat and the coating on the verso seem to exhibit no fluorescence. This suggests no OBA in the ink receptor coatings nor in the PE/TiO2 layers but it would take a cross sectional analysis or a dissection of the PE/paper/PE sandwich to confirm truly OBA-free PE layers - which is how I'm hoping some of these RC proofing papers are actually made.

As for the modern photo book yellowing, I suspect you are primarily witnessing ozone induced and some light induced breakdown of the OBAs, giving the exposed edges a noticeable yellowing especially when the eye sees the interior of the page as still being bright white with good OBA fluorescence. But even very old books can exhibit "foxing" around the edges, and in that case OBAs aren't the culprit since they didn't exist at the time those books were made. In this latter case, air pollution is still a major cause, and also microclimate effects give rise to the increased deterioration at the edges. Microclimate effects will produce fluctuations in relative humidity and temperature between the bulk paper concealed in the closed book and the edges where moisture and temperature cycling are occurring at the greatest rate of change over time, in turn leading to higher reaction rates which manifest as more advanced deterioration at the outer parts of the object than in the center core.

best,
mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

[Ernst Dinkla]

Ernst - so in your great Spectra Viz sleuthing, you are not finding the major motherload manufacturer of Canons Heavyweight - like Fuji or Mitsubishi or Schoeller?  It appears to have no exact replacement or equal. Epson Premium Luster 260 is nowhere near as good, despite promising archival allusions.  I am sad to hear the 240gsm Canon appears to have a different coating formulation. It is quite affordable.  I think I may have to shoulder the cost and loss of white point and go over to Platine. Which is a whole other type of paper, but Mark bringing dark yellowing into the mix, means I can't take that risk, at least for fine art selling. 

ps Ernst: what is the problem with 'Epson Proofing White Semimatt' ? - It sounds great but you imply photographers may not like it? Great gamut, no OBAs, affordable...

No, I could not find a clone for the Canon Heavyweight Satin or Gloss and I have done that search more often. The discontinued Moab Lasal 270 gsm has an identical spectral plot but is not available anymore. I can only guess a manufacturer or process that is no longer available. A discontinued Sihl paper 300gsm (4802) had a spectral plot close but with a bit more OBA effect. If I had to bet then Sihl as the source but this is highly speculative.

The Epson Proofing White Semimatt has a surface that is a (glossy) eggshell, with my HP inks + the gloss enhancer I can not really suppress bronzing and gloss differential. I do not think photographers have a taste for neutral to slightly warm RC papers, something they can accept in matte art papers but not in RC. The total white reflectance of this paper is high though. The gamut is superb, the more with warmer images. For B&W portraits it should be good too with inks that keep the gloss differential low.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=55330.0

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.