Syrian crisis - what should be done?

[mbaginy]

I've read most of the posts and try to understand the message each individual is trying to bring across.  I'm not sure we will ever reach anything close to a consensus.  Is it even possible to rationally discuss something as irrational as war?  As perverted as killing other people and morally justifying the act?  Is it possible to wage war for a just cause?  I'm not questioning history, I'm trying to reap some sort of guidance from it.  In my mind, that would be the only way to say, that people didn't die in vain.

[mezzoduomo]

If you support an attack on Syria abortion, you support the deaths of people
That's
YOU support the deaths of HUMAN BEINGS.
That's YOU

SUPPORT

THE

DEATHS

OF

HUMAN

BEINGS
There isn't another way of looking at it...

And by the way, I do support US action against the Syrian regime, and I generally support killing people under all kinds of circumstances that start with them wanting to kill me.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Funny how certain people have no problem supporting killing and yet claim to be pro-life. Staunchly pro-death and pro-life simultaneously. Schizophrenic?

[Rob C]

Basically, life and death have been at the behest of nature and also of man, for as long as we have existed. And it was the same with all of the other carnivores that walked this pleasant planet.

It ain't pretty and it ain't sweet, but it's what we are. We know we can do it, and when push comes to shove, we often realise there's no other way to go. BUT, I think we should reserve that option for times when we and/or our cultures are directly at risk. I'm not sure if the various religious groups that develop in the Middle-East would actually seek to kill all non-believers (of their beliefs) or not; it's said that some have this obligation to convert or eliminate...

Anyway, in the end, they have to clean their own house.

Iraq was lesson enough, I'd have thought, and the much vaunted 'assistance' to Libya didn't earn us a hill of beans or anything else but a few more murdered diplomats. We will ever be seen as foreign aggressors - save the bother and waste of meddling.

Rob C

[Steve Weldon]

Funny how certain people have no problem supporting killing and yet claim to be pro-life. Staunchly pro-death and pro-life simultaneously. Schizophrenic?

Not so funny if you stop and think when was the last time a fetus was plotting to kill you, or drive a plane through a building. 

The concept of the "innocent" having a right to life, and those trying to us being killed first really isn't that much of an abstraction is it?

[Jim Pascoe]

And by the way, I do support US action against the Syrian regime, and I generally support killing people under all kinds of circumstances that start with them wanting to kill me.

Problem being, as an almost certainty, is that the people doing the dying have no wish to be involved.  A young Syrian recruit is not Assad, anymore than a US soldier who joins up to get a College education and wants to defend his homeland wants to get his balls blown off in some god-forsaken desert that probably he didn't even know the location of before being sent there as an instrument of his government.

I'm with Rocco. 

Jim

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... plotting to kill you...

Progressing from schizophrenia to paranoia, aren't we?

[Vladimirovich]

PR of a different kind = http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11833159@egNews  (use translate.google.com)

[Vladimirovich]

Funny how certain people have no problem supporting killing and yet claim to be pro-life. Staunchly pro-death and pro-life simultaneously. Schizophrenic?

dual personality disorders are as american as apple pie.

[Steve Weldon]

Progressing from schizophrenia to paranoia, aren't we?

"We" first need to deal with that little condition of denial you're exhibiting.  While you go sit in the corner with the pointy hat on I'll be nice and make up some flash cards for you.  On the first one will be the twin towers, then the USS Cole, followed by a variety of embassies..   No worries mate, we'll get you squared away.  

[Vladimirovich]

"We" first need to deal with that little condition of denial you're exhibiting.  While you go sit in the corner with the pointy hat on I'll be nice and make up some flash cards for you.  On the first one will be the twin towers, then the USS Cole, followed by a variety of embassies..   No worries mate, we'll get you squared away.  

may be we shall rather start w/ poor Mosaddegh, United Marine's Boots Fruit Co, etc, etc... get a mirror, then complain about towers, ships and embassies

[Rocco Penny]

Thank goodness for old guys, thanks Rob-
I think I'll back off here and just say this overall,
we here in America are quick and sure to condemn any little infraction of law, international or otherwise, if it suits us.
People go to jail for sleeping in their cars, even though they have no house,
people go to jail in North Carolina now if they don't willingly cooperate with self incarceration on the edge of town, with zero contact or access to their weak albeit ONLY support system for the sole crime of being homeless.
Shootings in Oakland?
Let the victim bleed out if it is gang related,
if a police officer arrives on the scene, and there are witnesses giving CPR and applying pressure to the wound,
many times the police just either sytand by and do nothing as they're waiting for the ambulance,
or with the real guys,
they force everyone back before not doing anything,
even if the bystander is trained and administering CPR,
to be stopped by the police,
who then let the victim then bleed to death,
Just like when the cops shoot a victim.
Usually 14 or more bullets hit the target,
dead men tell no tales right?
Anything Obama, the senate, congress or the military says about Syria should take a back seat to everyday, flagrant use of force in violation of the law by a large percentage of the police here,
and by the vigorous prosecution of war criminals we harbor in our midst,
PS
anyone arguing my side against that idiot maddog's side has forgotten I pledged to block that stalker,
and have

[Peter Stacey]

Tell us, what more are you trying to say that makes chems any more/less predictable than say a cluster munition?  From drop to dispersion.

On this specific issue, the difference relates primarily to the time over which the weapon is effective and the behaviour of the material in that time.

A munition containing submunitions is predictable in the way it will fall and once the submunitions activate (assuming 100% activation for simplicity), the effect of the weapon is short, determined by the physical characteristics of the explosion and any enhancements. Once activated, the munition has no further effect (also assuming no depleted uranium in the munition and since this is a discussion of cluster munitions, none developed have contained dU).

The behaviour of a chemical inside a munition is determined by the characteristics of the munition for only the first 30 seconds after release (this is from research conducted in by the East Germans during the cold war). After that point, the behaviour of the chemical is determined by the physical properties of the chemical and the environmental conditions. The initial impact zone may be known based on the characteristics of the munition (but not always as below for the French), however following that, the effects of the agent (eg. VX) can last for several weeks and the chemicals can move in the environment causing problems in areas that were never targeted initially.

As a result, chemical weapons are regarded as more indiscriminate than conventional munitions (not including cluster munitions in that) because they can affect areas not initially targeted and people not initially targeted may move into affected areas and become victims long after the weapon have been released.

A cluster bomb (which are also illegal under the Convention on Cluster Munitions - but that has only 108 signatories at the moment) kills through its explosive properties and the explosive over pressures are very predictable and fall-off according to the inverse square law. Once the weapon is dropped, it's effects are virtually pre-determined and predictable.

For chemical weapons, the characteristics of the munition are known, but the physical behaviour of the chemical may vary significantly from predictions, particularly in response to environmental conditions.

In WWI, the French first used chlorine in response to earlier German attacks. In their initial attempt they released the gas and while it initially headed towards its target the wind changed and it came back straight through the allied lines, affecting their own troops (and Canadians). The behaviour of the weapon (ie. the components + the chemical) was exactly opposite the what they initially expected. Gases aren't a great example though, since they have been replaced by more reliable agents.

Research on Sarin has shown that in the early mornings following an attack, the concentration of agent in the air will rise, even if the area was previously declared clear. This occurs because the agent binds to soil, but has less affinity for the soil than moisture does. In the early morning dew periods the water binds to the soil, releasing sarin back into the air. Similar behaviour has been observed with other nerve agents also.

Mustard freezes at around 14 deg C (depending on purity as impure mustard will be liquid to lower temperatures). Once frozen it's effects (and ability to detect it) are diminished. However once it again melts above its freezing point, it can cause major problems (and there are many examples of this from WWI and from the Iran-Iraq War).

VX being non-volatile is difficult to detect, thought its presence is extremely lethal on contact. People, not knowing an area has been contaminated can move into it and be affected (with a high mortality rate). A study on VX I conducted under field conditions showed it was still effective 6 weeks after contamination (that was when we stopped the study).

So from drop to dispersion is one thing, but redistribution in the environment and the long lasting effect of the weapon is part of the reason why it's agreed that chemical weapons should be completely destroyed and never again produced (I don't think we'll ever reach that Utopia).

[Steve Weldon]

may be we shall rather start w/ poor Mosaddegh, United Marine's Boots Fruit Co, etc, etc... get a mirror, then complain about towers, ships and embassies

There's always one voice of unreason...

First, the point of the discussion you responded to was if there were enemies out to get us.  NOT if their status was earned.  But it was nice of you to support my argument by giving even more reasons we have people trying to hurt our country.  Even if it was what.. 60 odd years ago?  Kinda like if we were still trying to bomb a pichinko parlour in Japan over Pearl Harbour..

[Steve Weldon]

So from drop to dispersion is one thing, but redistribution in the environment and the long lasting effect of the weapon is part of the reason why it's agreed that chemical weapons should be completely destroyed and never again produced (I don't think we'll ever reach that Utopia).

You make many good points.  Thank you.  Unfortunately on a few of the points like the lasting effects.. cluster bombs aren't the only 'come lately' munitions.  Land mines have been a huge problem, unexploded ordinance of all types, and even depth charges and anti-ship mines have taken out entire ships as they were "discovered" later.   

Ever seen (pictures count) a battle field after cluster bombs hit it?  You wouldn't forget it.  How many bacterial threats not to mention possible viruses come out of those meat grinders?  At once point we had I think 5% of the bomblets going unexploded and kids carrying them home hoping to sell for scrap metal?  Human hamburger from one side of the field to the next.  Diseases of all types.

Remember in the final days of Desert Storm, the refinery and well fires?  Chemicals (industrial and some weapons being disposed of)were so thick in the air you could cut them with a knife and they're largely blamed for Gulf War Sickness.

I could go on with volumes of examples, but we can agree these are all unintended consequences of conventional ordinance.  (cluster bombs were then conventional).   Throughout the history of conventional munitions we have these kinds of issues.  Bombs set for air burst that hit the ground, and the other way around. depleted uranium making land and water supplies unusable. 

There's no doubt chemical weapons have their issues.  But with virtually every bombing mission there are also issues we didn't plan for that cause death and strife mainly to those we didn't target.  I really don't think either chemical weapons or conventional weapons gets to be the winner.  But I'd sure vote for biological weapons..

[Peter Stacey]

You make many good points.  Thank you.  Unfortunately on a few of the points like the lasting effects.. cluster bombs aren't the only 'come lately' munitions.  Land mines have been a huge problem, unexploded ordinance of all types, and even depth charges and anti-ship mines have taken out entire ships as they were "discovered" later.

Sure. Thankfully those issues don't currently relate to the Syrian situation, which is difficult enough already without adding those problems on top.

In parts of other countries in the middle east I have worked, minefields were a constant consideration and it doesn't make for fun when trying to find suitable locations to explosively destroy other munitions.

[Steve Weldon]

Sure. Thankfully those issues don't currently relate to the Syrian situation, which is difficult enough already without adding those problems on top.

In parts of other countries in the middle east I have worked, minefields were a constant consideration and it doesn't make for fun when trying to find suitable locations to explosively destroy other munitions.

With the ME and current politics they might threaten to mine the Straight again.   As we've seen with the insurgents nothing is off the table and they consider to do well in the innovation department.  And now we know it's okay to lob a chem out there every now and then to keep us thinking and they'll face nothing more serious than the bitter taste of global apathy..

[Rob C]

Q.  What do you get if you lock two 'academics' in a room and everyone else goes away?

A.  Peace.

..........................

An Irishman, an Englishman and a Welshman are in a pub. The Irishman says: where’s the Scotsman?

An Irishman, an Englishman and a Welshman are in a pub. The Englishman says: where’s the Scotsman?

An Irishman, an Englishman and a Welshman are in a pub. The Welshman says: maybe you’ve heard this one before?

A Scotsman walks into an empty pub. He says: thank fuck it’s busy tonight.

;-)

Rob C

[David Sutton]

What has been lacking for this appalling gas attack has been motive. Here are two opinions pointing to the same origin:
First
Second
Not saying they are right, just that I haven't seen any alternative yet.
In the meantime, from the purely selfish viewpoint of a Pacific dweller, I really hope they sort out Fukushima.

[Rocco Penny]

from the purely selfish viewpoint of a Pacific dweller, I really hope they sort out Fukushima.

I heard the Japanese PM yesterday pledge full govt resources to the disaster.
Understand they want to permafrost the place with big chillers?
Windfarm offshore to power it?
Oh god save me from these people- we are so screwed

Several state agencies charged with the task of monitoring water quality in both  the Los Angeles area, and Santa Barbara area
have reported

[fb feed]

Fukushima Radiation Plume Hit Southern and Central California

The Journal Environmental Science and Technology reports in a new study that the Fukushima radiation plume contacted North America at California “with greatest exposure in central and southern California”, and that Southern California’s seaweed tested over 500% higher for radioactive iodine-131 than anywhere else in the U.S. and Canada:

Projected paths of the radioactive atmospheric plume emanating from the Fukushima reactors, best described as airborne particles or aerosols for 131I, 137Cs, and 35S, and subsequent atmospheric monitoring showed it coming in contact with the North American continent at California, with greatest exposure in central and southern California. Government monitoring sites in Anaheim (southern California) recorded peak airborne concentrations of 131I at 1.9 pCi m−3 Anaheim is where Disneyland is located.

EneNews summarizes the data:

Corona Del Mar (Highest in Southern California)

2.5 Bq/gdwt (gram dry weight)= 2,500 Bq/kg of dry seaweed

Santa Cruz (Highest in Central California)

2.0 Bq/gdwt = 2,000 Bq/kg of dry seaweed

Simon Fraser University in Canada also tested North American seaweed after Fukushima:

“In samples of dehydrated seaweed taken on March 15 near the North Vancouver SeaBus terminal, the count was zero; on March 22 it was 310 Bq per kilogram; and by March 28 it was 380 Bq/kg.” -Vancouver Sun
Seaweed in Seattle also tested positive for iodine-131; levels were not reported -KIRO
No results after March 28 were reported

In addition, radioactive debris is starting to wash up on the Pacific Coast. And because the Japanese are burning radioactive materials instead of disposing of them, radioactive rain-outs will continue for some time … even on the Pacific Coast. In addition, radioactive debris is starting to wash up on the Pacific Coast. And because the Japanese are burning radioactive materials instead of disposing of them, radioactive rain-outs will continue for some time … even on the Pacific Coast.

Of course, the government is doing everything it can to help citizens cover up what’s occurring. We pointed out in January:

Instead of doing much to try to protect their citizens from Fukushima, Japan, the U.S. and the EU all just raised the radiation levels they deem “safe”. [link to www.ritholtz.com]