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Author Topic: Syrian crisis - what should be done?  (Read 47376 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #60 on: August 31, 2013, 05:58:34 pm »

... As far as I'm concerned we desperately need a constitutional amendment that will keep anybody from running for commander in chief (president) unless he's had at least four years military experience.

Right. In happier times, it was said that "the business of America is business" (president Coolidge). In post-WWII era, it seems that the business of America is war. So, yes, your proposal makes perfect sense.

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You're not really in a position to talk about war, Slobodan.

Oh!? Why not? Are you suggesting that only those with some military experience should? Mind you that they (you) are in a small majority, relative to the rest of the population. Reduce that to those with war experience, and it becomes a minuscule minority. Come to think of it, chances are that if we would indeed left war decisions to veterans, we would NOT have so many wars.

Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #61 on: August 31, 2013, 06:31:59 pm »

We seem to know for sure that chemical weapons were used, but by whom?

The purpose of the in country investigation was to determine not only what was used (ie. chemical vs non-chemical), but also the who, when, where and how.

As an outcome of the investigation, evidence to make conclusions about each of these aspects has been gathered and preliminarily provided. The final report is due 30 days from the return of the team and that will include the result of additional analysis work currently underway in some of the top analytical laboratories in the World (in addition to what has already been done by the inspection team).
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 06:53:58 pm by Peter Stacey »
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degrub

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2013, 06:51:37 pm »

I wonder if Saddam had any weaponized nerve agents that got relocated before we went in.

Frank
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RSL

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #63 on: August 31, 2013, 08:59:27 pm »

Right. In happier times, it was said that "the business of America is business" (president Coolidge). In post-WWII era, it seems that the business of America is war. So, yes, your proposal makes perfect sense.

Oh!? Why not? Are you suggesting that only those with some military experience should? Mind you that they (you) are in a small majority, relative to the rest of the population. Reduce that to those with war experience, and it becomes a minuscule minority. Come to think of it, chances are that if we would indeed left war decisions to veterans, we would NOT have so many wars.

You're way out of your depth, Slobodan, and over your head. You haven't a clue.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2013, 09:52:03 pm »

You're way out of your depth, Slobodan, and over your head. You haven't a clue.

Touché! :)

Rob C

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2013, 05:16:48 am »

The purpose of the in country investigation was to determine not only what was used (ie. chemical vs non-chemical), but also the who, when, where and how.

As an outcome of the investigation, evidence to make conclusions about each of these aspects has been gathered and preliminarily provided. The final report is due 30 days from the return of the team and that will include the result of additional analysis work currently underway in some of the top analytical laboratories in the World (in addition to what has already been done by the inspection team).


According to the news service I have watched, the remit is ONLY to discover if they have been used.

Rob C

William Walker

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2013, 05:44:40 am »

Hi Peter
Your question does not seem to have been answered!

You seem to be best placed and qualified to provide an answer.

What do you think should be done?

Regards
William
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 07:08:43 am by William Walker »
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stamper

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2013, 05:57:59 am »

At the risk of being cynical and callous I think the two side will have to fight till one or the other is the victor? I don't see any prospect for a negotiated peace, at least one that both sides will stick to. Of course this doesn't help the civilian population. An article in the Sunday Mail - Scotland - alleges the UK Government agreed to a license for chemicals to be sold to Syria - after the war started - that when one other easily obtainable chemical was added to the mix it could be used to gas the population. Then again lobbing cruise missiles into Syria from hundreds of miles away WON'T imo solve anything. It looks as Obama is looking for a way to get off the hook. Putin looks like he has called the USA bluff when he states that evidence should be made available to the UN. Ain't the world a wonderful place. :o

RSL

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2013, 08:37:36 am »

Then again lobbing cruise missiles into Syria from hundreds of miles away WON'T imo solve anything.

Depends on what you mean by "anything," Stamper. It certainly won't solve anything as far as the war is concerned, but it'll solve a credibility problem Obama's beginning to see grow among his "base." He's beginning to realize that his "red line" throwaway was a mistake unless he actually intended to respond. The cruise missiles will be to show that he's "doing something."
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Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2013, 10:52:33 am »


According to the news service I have watched, the remit is ONLY to discover if they have been used.

Rob C

There's a lot not in the public domain.

The inspection has been conducted in accordance with Paty XI of the CWC Verification Annex and specifically in relation to issues associated with the origin of the weapons, as outlined in clause 25 and 26:

http://www.opcw.org/chemical-weapons-convention/verification-annex/part-xi/

So a lot of additional information collected by the team in country (as part of the written mandate the team were operating under), which will ultimately be combined with information from the intelligence community.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 10:59:17 am by Peter Stacey »
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Rob C

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2013, 02:29:39 pm »

Concern about the civilian population as a separate entity mystifies me: it is a civil war.

As for sides, how many are there? From a variety of different Moslem types to Christians, and back to a government made up predominantly of one of those types... If anything, it's starting to look as if it isn't really much to do with specific governments but far more to do with the abolition of national borders and the creation of separate Moslem religious sectors across the entire Middle-East. I'd hate to live in Cyprus these days.

Quite where that'll leave Israel is anyone's guess. Maybe back in '48 they should have been offered Montana instead.

Rob C

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2013, 04:12:38 pm »

... to show that he's "doing something."

I couldn't help noticing a great pun, though the points raised are good too (Time Magazine):

Are You Syrious, Mr. President?


Slobodan

Clueless in Chicago

hjulenissen

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2013, 03:46:16 am »

As far as I'm concerned we desperately need a constitutional amendment that will keep anybody from running for commander in chief (president) unless he's had at least four years military experience.
Your prior President did have some military experience. It did not seem to help him make very good decisions (as seen from the outside).

One might demand that the big chief has a deep background in economy, law, military, natural sciences, private sector,... He/she should also be young, fit,... It quickly builds up to an impossible list. I think it makes more sense to choose a guy (or woman) who has done at least something right in his/her life, and who seems to be able to attract (and listen to) the right advisors.

-h
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RSL

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2013, 10:20:02 am »

Hi Hjulenissen, The mistake you're making is to assume I'm talking about a "field of study," or a credential. I'm not. I'm asking that the commander in chief be required to have had some personal experience with war, either as a combatant or as a small unit commander who's required to send people into combat. Unless you've had that kind of experience, "combat" and "war" are abstractions. It's kind of like a white man telling you he knows what it's like to be black.

I'd certainly go along with demanding that a presidential candidate have some experience in the "private sector." If you don't think that's reasonable, check out what George McGovern, failed Democrat presidential candidate in 1972, said after he tried to run a business: "What I Know Now: Nibbled to Death" http://www.inc.com/magazine/19931201/3809.html. Before this experience George knew all about the private sector -- in the abstract. That's not the same thing as experiencing it. This distinction is the thing that causes so many extensively schooled and heavily credentialed college professors to make so many catastrophic mistakes. Theory is one thing. Experience is another. And rarely do the twain meet.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 10:21:43 am by RSL »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2013, 10:39:35 am »

Hi Hjulenissen, The mistake you're making is to assume I'm talking about a "field of study," or a credential. I'm not. I'm asking that the commander in chief be required to have had some personal experience with war, either as a combatant or as a small unit commander who's required to send people into combat. Unless you've had that kind of experience, "combat" and "war" are abstractions. It's kind of like a white man telling you he knows what it's like to be black.
And why is practical knowledge of war more important than the practical knowledge of e.g. economy? Practical knowledge about how laws (among them, your constitution) works? One could certainly make the case that ruining the economy can have worse consequences on the people of a nation than loosing a war.
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I'd certainly go along with demanding that a presidential candidate have some experience in the "private sector." If you don't think that's reasonable, check out what George McGovern, failed Democrat presidential candidate in 1972, said after he tried to run a business: "What I Know Now: Nibbled to Death" http://www.inc.com/magazine/19931201/3809.html. Before this experience George knew all about the private sector -- in the abstract. That's not the same thing as experiencing it. This distinction is the thing that causes so many extensively schooled and heavily credentialed college professors to make so many catastrophic mistakes. Theory is one thing. Experience is another. And rarely do the twain meet.
"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other.", attributed to Ben Franklin.

Theory is just a description of reality that seems to fit well. Most people dissing theory are using theories (possibly without knowing), such as the theory that "Theory will not predict what happens when you go to war".

No single man or woman can have hands-on experience (or theoretical depth) in every critical subject. I take the one capable of recruiting and listening to good advisors over the over-confident single-cause ex-marine.

-h
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 01:23:05 am by hjulenissen »
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Rob C

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2013, 11:24:28 am »


With respect, this is simply arguing a flawed view that any single person can have only one experience or the other. I believe that there are those whose experience is broad enough to understand both the reality of sending people to their uncertain fate on the battlefield, as well as the truth about markets, banks and how the system keeps on rolling until something like a brick wall or a broken axle stops it in its tracks.

Then you need someone with strength, conviction and the ability to move public sentiment in a big way.

Few seem capable of meeting the challenge; fewer yet will have that opportunity (or seek it) because we have a press that is permanently out for blood and excitement at the cost of absolutely everything else, including national security and stability. We don’t need external enemies when our own writers and broadcasters are ever doing their very best to undermine every aspect of our own countries. In some European states, any man in office who hasn’t had an interesting sex-life is considered slightly odd, a bit of a hick, and less than broadly experienced in the ways of the world; in Britain and the States that seems to be the very first thing that precludes or ejects any man from office. Why? What has the bedroom to do with the office? Election by hypocrisy seems greatly what it’s about, and plays neatly into the hands of the tabloids and news (news - really?) slots on tv.

I read these threads here, and the single common factor that forces through is this obsession with baring all, with a manic fear of losing some freedom thought constantly under far greater imaginary threat from deep within the state than at the hand of its common, external foes. And there are many.

Perhaps it’s a matter of age, experience and a broader first-hand knowledge of how other parts of the world comport themselves. What strikes me here is an attitude I’d expect from someone who has never left the farm. All in all, it renders these kinds of threads somewhat moribund from the very start.

Rob C

RSL

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2013, 11:28:16 am »

One could certainly make the case that ruining the economy can have worse consequences on the people of a nation than loosing a war.

Try telling that to the people in Western Europe who were overrun by the Nazis.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #77 on: September 02, 2013, 12:28:36 pm »

... In some European states, any man in office who hasn’t had an interesting sex-life is considered slightly odd, a bit of a hick, and less than broadly experienced in the ways of the world; in Britain and the States that seems to be the very first thing that precludes or ejects any man from office. Why? What has the bedroom to do with the office?...

Rob, do you really expect me to look up to a man as the "broadly experienced in the ways of the world" who cheated on a cancer-stricken wife, while using her for a sympathy bump in his campaign? Who fathered a child but didn't take responsibility for it until the very tabloids you so despise forced him to?

The morality of the modern age might have relaxed a number of old axioms, but there are still certain core values that most decent man share. The above is definitely not one of those core values, and I, for one, do not want a leader with "values" like that. On the other hand, I am much less concerned with an occasional BJ in the Oval Office.

A Farm Boy

Manoli

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #78 on: September 02, 2013, 12:32:58 pm »

As far as I'm concerned we desperately need a constitutional amendment that will keep anybody from running for commander in chief (president) unless he's had at least four years military experience.
or
I'm asking that the commander in chief be required to have had some personal experience with war, either as a combatant or as a small unit commander who's required to send people into combat. Unless you've had that kind of experience, "combat" and "war" are abstractions.

Which one is it ?
Or do you mean someone who has 'had at least four years military experience .. either as a combatant or as a small unit commander' ?

Perhaps your constitutional amendment should require that in the upcoming elections, at least one of the pair should have the required military experience. That way, should war break out, we can swap them. A bit like, Bill & Ben (the flowerpot men).

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #79 on: September 02, 2013, 12:42:49 pm »

... I'm asking that the commander in chief be required to have had some personal experience with war, either as a combatant or as a small unit commander who's required to send people into combat...

For presidential candidates to claim such an experience, a country must be in a perpetual state of war. In a rare situation that it isn't, god forbid, candidates must work hard to start a new war, otherwise their political career goes down the drain. Of course, these things will never happen in real life. Oh, wait... damn!
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