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Author Topic: Syrian crisis - what should be done?  (Read 47575 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #100 on: September 03, 2013, 12:47:50 pm »

... The occasional BJ in the office.. with an otherwise or even purported healthy relationship.. shows a deep disrespect to the office he holds...

I would thought that a good BJ commands a lot of respect. Dare I suggest it provides a perfect happy ending to his term in the office? A pinnacle perhaps? Crème de la crème? ;D

Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #101 on: September 03, 2013, 01:46:31 pm »



1,  Exactly what I’d expect from you, so congratulations on consistency.


2. For my sins – and pleasures – we bought right next to a farm thirty-two years ago. Since that time, the local farmer (Spanish) has been paid by the European Community to slaughter all his animals and to stop growing produce. The farm was consequently abandoned, and is now turning into a pine forest. Pine grows very rapidly, in direct proportion to the loss of our view, you might say.

Funny thing: if you drive the length of France, top-to-bottom, you will see more working farms than you could possibly imagine; I’m told that Germans can get allowances for owning even two farm animals, but I can’t vouch for the veracity of that. However, guess which two countries in the EEC have the major clout and pretty much control the Agricultural Policy…

But to be more serious: I have travelled to many countries and lived in several. I do have a fairly good grasp of the realities of life in different cultures. It seems to me that most writers here do not have that knowledge and experience, just the crap that hits them from the tv or the press, which isn’t their fault and doesn’t make me any better: I just led a different life from the day I was born; my experiences are just different. In a sense, international gypsies, but comfortably so, you might say. Fortunately or otherwise, insularity and blind national patriotism hasn’t been my lot.

;-)

Rob C

1.  Thank you.  Civility is important when discussing a topic not related to the forum.  Obviously not everyone understands this.

2.  I've been to France.  

3.  You seem to think you're special or have some special knowledge because you're travelled?   Perhaps.  I've lived 25+ years in foreign countries, lived in 6 for 12 months or longer, and learned 3 new language as an adult.  While experience with other cultures is nice, in all my travels I've noticed most still don't get it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 01:58:17 pm by Steve Weldon »
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #102 on: September 03, 2013, 01:57:55 pm »

I would thought that a good BJ commands a lot of respect. Dare I suggest it provides a perfect happy ending to his term in the office? A pinnacle perhaps? Crème de la crème? ;D


To be fair I can see your point.  But what I'm specifically talking about were the times he was getting his BJ's while talking on the phone discussing war actions..   Clouded judgement?  Distracted at the worst time?   I really don't care about who does what sexually.. but it does taint a man's character when he disrespects his wife so publically.   It's going to be funny to see what intern she plays with when she's President..
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Rob C

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #103 on: September 03, 2013, 03:02:38 pm »

1.  Thank you.  Civility is important when discussing a topic not related to the forum.  Obviously not everyone understands this.

2.  I've been to France.  

3.  You seem to think you're special or have some special knowledge because you're travelled?    Perhaps.  I've lived 25+ years in foreign countries, lived in 6 for 12 months or longer, and learned 3 new language as an adult.  While experience with other cultures is nice, in all my travels I've noticed most still don't get it.




Nope, I think know I'm 'special' because I am me! Just as you think that you are special because you are yourself, too. We are all 'special'; just ask our wives and/or mothers.

If you don't think of yourself as special, what the hell do you have to offer to society? Thinking oneself a cog is the end, the most absolute of zeroes outwith the textbooks...

Rob C

P.S. Oops! I am I.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 03:29:10 am by Rob C »
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #104 on: September 03, 2013, 04:40:56 pm »




Nope, I think know I'm 'special' because I am me! Just as you think that you are special because you are yourself, too. We are all 'special'; just ask our wives and/or mothers.

If you don't think of yourself as special, what the hell do you have to offer to society? Thinking oneself a cog is the end, the most absolute of zeroes outwith the textbooks...

Rob C
The non-bombastic truth in the representation of "me."  How could I not be happy with that?
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Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #105 on: September 03, 2013, 05:46:45 pm »

Peter - I quite understand all you are saying.  However deplorable chemical weapons are, is it really much different to the victims in the end?  I mean bullets, shrapnel, fuel-air munitions, mines, they are all pretty awful if you are the victim.

Not any different to these victims, but action may help prevent other victims in the future (not only in this conflict, but in others also).

As much as it pains me to think about it, if my sons ever ended up in a war, I would hate for them to become the victims of chemical weapons.

War is always going to be here irrespective of how everyone feels about it. That's why we have rules for its conduct and those rules say throwing metal at each other and using explosive pressures are ok, but not chemicals that kill by their toxic effect.

The biggest problem with the use of chemicals is that they are indiscriminate.

A bullet fired at someone has limited ability to maim and kill. A chemical isn't constrained the same way. Explosions, while acting in 360 degrees, have a rapid fall-off in pressure that is predictable. Chemicals don't have the same limitation.

We can all agree that bullets, bombs, rockets, missiles, grenades, claymores and other conventional munitions are terrible ways to die, but they are the ways we've said are allowed.

The use of mines, chemicals, mutilation of bodies, torture, mistreatment of prisoners and other cruel acts we've decided, are not the ways we should conduct war.

When we chose not to hold others to those standards, or we fall short in them ourselves, then we open up our own future generations to suffering the same things.

That's why in my view, something strong should be done to stop any further chemical attacks in the current Syrian conflict (and then let the sides continue against each other with conventional mean). Not to make it better for the victims there have already been, but because I don't want the potential for my kids or other future generations of soldiers to face similar things.

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In the Syrian case we have the added emotional impact of the children too.  But I seem to remember the carnage wrought in other countries recently by US weapons on the population where targeting information went wrong or innocent children just happened to be 'in the wrong place at the wrong time'.  To see the pictures of the rags of bodies left over from such strikes is pitiful - and they weren't hit by chemical weapons.  And of course for every dead victim there are probably more maimed for life - both physically and possibly mentally too.

Personally you won't get an argument out of me on that. War in general is an unfortunate tool we use against each other. However, while there are still innocent victims in war, the number is decreasing due to improved technology. Technology will always fail, or the location of a conflict will be in urban areas, however it's nowhere near as bad as it was in the past and I hope the number of victims continues to decrease in the future.

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In principle I cannot quite see why the 'Red Line' is set depending on the type of weapons used.  The armaments industry spends enormous sums on researching the most effective and efficient killing devices possible, and then we say that chemical weapons are banned.  The Red Line seems arbitrary and my worry is, as in the past, the West is looking for an excuse to wade in and start bombing people.

The various red-lines seem arbitrary, but really aren't. There have to be some ways to conduct war, but through a very large number of Conventions, some countries, most countries or all countries (depending on the Convention) have agreed that certain things should not be done, while others are ok.

It isn't just about the West, though as Westerners that's what we see. It really should be a Worldwide push (and in this case it really is a global push with a few powerful blockers in the way). Many countries that have condemned the attacks just don't physically have the means to intervene outside of diplomacy or sanctions because they don't have the military capability.

There are only a few countries that can take physical action and the most powerful of those is the US. I can really understand why US citizens don't want to get involved, because it always seems that it's the US that's called on the act first. It's not always the case, but the US is a powerful nation and it's view on these things has a significiant impact on the position of other nations.

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Therefore we in the West make sure that the guys we don't like are not able to build, store or have the means to deliver any nasty weapons outside of there own borders.  Just give them guns and they can happily kill themselves as much as they like.

Not only the West, other nations have also agreed that these types of weapons are not acceptable. What is unfortunate is that these weapons exist. What's more unfortunate, being a Westerner, is that each of them was invented in the West. The development by others followed the lead that Western countries took.

I don't know whether that places a higher burden on us in the West to ensure that those weapons are controlled (probably not), but in any case, it's not only a problem for countries with a Western ideology. It's a problem for everyone.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 05:50:44 pm by Peter Stacey »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #106 on: September 03, 2013, 06:12:38 pm »

OK... let's see... so the red lines are for real... and they must be enforced. So, I were a government's local opponent, and much weaker at that, and want someone to intervene on my behalf... hmmm... what shall I do? How about I make it look like the government crossed the red line? Smart, huh? On the other hand, if you are the government, why would you risk foreign intervention for something you could achieve just as easily with conventional weapons?

Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #107 on: September 03, 2013, 06:28:50 pm »

OK... let's see... so the red lines are for real... and they must be enforced.

They must, or they mustn't. My individual view doesn't have much weight on it's own, but it's a valid view, just as others are.

Whatever the collective view is will probably drive whether intervention occurs.

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So, I were a government's local opponent, and much weaker at that, and want someone to intervene on my behalf... hmmm... what shall I do? How about I make it look like the government crossed the red line? Smart, huh? On the other hand, if you are the government, why would you risk foreign intervention for something you could achieve just as easily with conventional weapons?

Those are scenarios that may or may not apply here. That's why objective, independent evidence has been collected in this case. Evidence doesn't lie, though we may lack the ability to collect it fully or interpret it correctly (or have a political position that affects its interpretation).

Political games in conflict are just as prevalent as physical assault, so governments and other groups have always tried to fool others. That's where in this case at least, the evidence is helping to determine the factual sequence of events.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #108 on: September 03, 2013, 08:51:30 pm »


The biggest problem with the use of chemicals is that they are indiscriminate.

A bullet fired at someone has limited ability to maim and kill. A chemical isn't constrained the same way. Explosions, while acting in 360 degrees, have a rapid fall-off in pressure that is predictable. Chemicals don't have the same limitation.

The use of mines, chemicals, mutilation of bodies, torture, mistreatment of prisoners and other cruel acts we've decided, are not the ways we should conduct war.


1.  Perspective might show this to be one of it's greatest features.   A soldier might tell you one of the biggest problems of chemical warfare is always being in your MOP suit, having one standing by, and the logistical demands demanded by their use. A commander would have a different view, and the enemy another.

2.   Umm.. no.  Bombs are just chemicals too.  And chemicals have completely predictable fallout regions, though wind, rain, freezing cold.. can impact these regions.    Are you thinking of germ warfare?  Viruses are to be greatly feared.  Outside the proper lab they present a huge danger to the entire world.  Scary.

3.  The history of this is fascinating.. and gruesome.
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Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #109 on: September 03, 2013, 10:09:31 pm »

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A soldier might tell you one of the biggest problems of chemical warfare is always being in your MOP suit, having one standing by, and the logistical demands demanded by their use.

That's also a strategic advantage to their use. It places an additional burden on the enemy, which if you don't have the same burden (or less of a burden) may give you an advantage that can be exploited.

There are a number of reasons a State might chose to use or threaten to use chemical weapons, not only to kill the enemy - and the type of agent that should be used for each purpose or under different environmental conditions is often different.

What's always consistent is that there must be a strategic advantage to the threat or use of chemical weapons.

Umm.. no.  Bombs are just chemicals too.  And chemicals have completely predictable fallout regions, though wind, rain, freezing cold.. can impact these regions.    Are you thinking of germ warfare?  Viruses are to be greatly feared.  Outside the proper lab they present a huge danger to the entire world.  Scary.

Explosives don't kill by their toxic effects (certainly that's not their primary reason for use), where chemical weapons do. Sure, explosive compounds are chemicals too, but there is a difference between them and chemical weapons (which all except for some spray tanks, also include an explosive component).

Everything physical thing can be described as a chemical, but that doesn't make everything a chemical weapon.

Chemicals have predictable behaviour in a laboratory. In the field, the behaviour is often very different. I work with large quantities of chemical weapons as an Inspection Team Leader and as Head of training for all chemical weapons inspectors, we are very familiar with how the predictable behaviour of an agent is not so predictable under real world conditions.

The predictable nature of an explosion is very predictable and knowable under almost all circumstances (and we commonly use explosions as a means for emergency destruction where other approaches are not possible).

Biological weapons add an additional layer of difficulty, not only through use, but also through compliance. They are banned under the BWC, but there is no practical way to confirm that the bans are effective and from a very small amount, a large quantity of material (aside from toxins like Ricin, which is also a chemical weapon) can be produced with relatively simple equipment in a short period of time (this isn't generally true of the chemicals that have been weaponised, which require a higher level of sophistication to produce - sulfur mustard being an exception that is relatively simple and safe to produce with the right precursors - which are subject to verification and are subject to trade limitations). Verification under the BWC was looked at again internationally post 'Amerithrax', but globally agreed, that a huge amount of money would be spent to implement an ineffective verification regime. It's arguable that the behaviour of biological agents is also quite predicable, but again, real World behaviour is often different and rightly, most of the WHO, CDC and other key organisations involved in monitoring clinical effects of disease, focus primarily on biological organisms that are already in/or may arise within, existing communities.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:22:12 pm by Peter Stacey »
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Rocco Penny

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #110 on: September 03, 2013, 10:45:10 pm »

I don't know who bombed who,  I don't know if assad would give way to a less inflammatory leader,  I don't know if there is a military solution in syria, I don't know who is allied with who in syria and the surrounding extremist riddled groups,

I DO know you'd be going against previous proof of promised outcomes as being fat lies and propaganda, and that taking The United States Government's word on what and how we should approach the issues in syria,  is like listening to your buddies on the internet about just how they think we should approach the issue.
Just dumb...
These are exactly the same guys that had it 100% wrong in Iraq that has just today claimed another 42 people in the related US caused death toll that is an unconscionable number,
300 children in syria dead?
How bout the children left to die in the back of police cars in the US?
We are going to force the rest of the world to do something we wont even do
Protect civilians.
BAH!
Do it here then maybe,,
You all really are going to trust these same liars that brought us Iraq?
You fell for it again you bunch of slow learners you...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:52:47 pm by Rocco Penny »
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #111 on: September 04, 2013, 12:13:36 am »

That's also a strategic advantage to their use. It places an additional burden on the enemy, which if you don't have the same burden (or less of a burden) may give you an advantage that can be exploited.

There are too many reasons to list.. I just named a few to get people to think of more on their own to show it's not limited.



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Everything physical thing can be described as a chemical, but that doesn't make everything a chemical weapon.

Again, obvious.  I was hoping readers had a basic understanding of the sciences.  I still think most do, but it's amusing how little faith you see one person put in the other.  Runaway ego perhaps?


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Chemicals have predictable behaviour in a laboratory. In the field, the behaviour is often very different.

The statement I was responding to was that chemical weapons are indiscriminate.  My point is they are no more indiscriminate than a bullet or explosives when discussed in context.  We aim a bullet, we aim chemical weapons.  (or rather target).   We just don't throw chemical weapons up in the air and they seek out our enemies.. that would be the perfect weapon and might someday happen with another type of weapon, but not a chemical weapon.  Chemical weapons are dispersed by many of the same delivery systems we used to deliver bullets or explosives.  We target chemical weapons just like we aim bullets.  We drop them from planes, we shoot them in cannisters, put them in shells in place of explosives, we "sprinkle" them from a number of platforms..

Chemical weapons also don't "often" behave differently in the field than in the lab.  They behave the same, 100% of the time.  Ask an chemist.   They don't mutate.  They do "mix", shoot a gallon of chlorine and it lands in a gallon ammonia and you'll have a problem.  Shoot a tracer into a fuel storage tank and you'll also have a problem.  What you're trying to say is there's a larger variety of substances to which a "mix" might be an issue.  Fair enough.  Take a .50bmg into an urban setting where one shot can go through 10-20 thin walls and kill what the eye never intended to target and you have the same type of issue.

The real problem with chemical weapons is that the lab.. is often real people in a real setting.  I know we kill animals with chems in the lab.. but we don't kill humans (god I hope not) in the lab and we don't build small neighbourhoods or large cities in the labs either.  RECENTLY we do effective computer modelling.. but there is often very little difference between the lab and actual real life use.


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Biological weapons add an additional layer of difficulty
,

Germ or biological warfare presents more danger to mankind than anything short of a world ending meteorite hit..  They mutate, they can live in the heat of a volcano, or the cold of a polar ice cap, they can live for thousands of years.    The perfect way for man to destroy this planet.  The cannot be compared to bombs or chemical weapons.
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Peter Stacey

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #112 on: September 04, 2013, 12:25:17 am »

Chemical weapons also don't "often" behave differently in the field than in the lab.  They behave the same, 100% of the time.  Ask an chemist.

I think we might be discussing different things.

I think you're discussing chemical behaviour, which is the same 100% of the time, while I'm discussing physical behaviour, which is the same a very low percentage of the time for chemical weapons.

In relation to asking a chemist, I am one (not an ego thing at all. I just have a view on the use of chemical weapons because I work with them directly).

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I still think most do, but it's amusing how little faith you see one person put in the other.  Runaway ego perhaps?

Sorry, I'm lost on that one. I was just responding to the statement that bombs are no different to chemical weapons because they are also chemicals. That's not a position accepted by most countries.

I must have misunderstood what you meant.


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Germ or biological warfare presents more danger to mankind than anything short of a world ending meteorite hit..  They mutate, they can live in the heat of a volcano, or the cold of a polar ice cap, they can live for thousands of years.    The perfect way for man to destroy this planet.  The cannot be compared to bombs or chemical weapons.

I agree on that (unless of course, we discover that a World ending meteorite starts heading towards Earth... :)).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 12:43:57 am by Peter Stacey »
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #113 on: September 04, 2013, 12:31:09 am »

OK... let's see... so the red lines are for real... and they must be enforced. So, I were a government's local opponent, and much weaker at that, and want someone to intervene on my behalf... hmmm... what shall I do? How about I make it look like the government crossed the red line? Smart, huh? On the other hand, if you are the government, why would you risk foreign intervention for something you could achieve just as easily with conventional weapons?

1.  As real as the teleprompter he read "red line" from..

2.  OR we say it must be enforced and hope we never have to.  And if it does, we use it as a "teachable moment" to explain how or predecessors put us in the position where we had to make such a statement.

3.  No no no.. read "predecessors" above.    See how that works?  Our own little teachable moment.. just you and me..  ;D

4.  To put the fear of Allah into the resistance.   Most can understand the concept of a bomb or explosives.  Chemical weapons are a different matter.  Like a vengeful god. The unseen enemy.  A bullet and a Columbian Necktie are both designed to kill a single person.  But it's the latter that strikes uncontrollable fear and brings obedience to the table..
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #114 on: September 04, 2013, 12:52:38 am »

I think we might be discussing different things.

At least.  Let's try and clarify this a bit more.

I said "Bombs are just chemicals too.  And chemicals have completely predictable fallout regions" 

You said .. well a lot but I think this was most germane "
Explosives don't kill by their toxic effect:"

We all knew this.  But, I think you are trying to say explosive behaviour is more predictable than chemical weapon behaviour.    I'd agree it is.  But for battle field purposes, drop a cluster bomb and cover a certain spread pattern (btw, I hate these almost as much as chems), drop a chem cannister and cover a certain spread pattern.  Both are predictable, but the prediction on both can change for many reasons.  Weather, ground type, and so on.

Tell us, what more are you trying to say that makes chems any more/less predictable than say a cluster munition?  From drop to dispersion.


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In relation to asking a chemist, I am one (not an ego thing at all. I just have a view on the use of chemical weapons because I work with them directly).

Fair enough.  You can call me an "end user" and an observer of such.  So far very little of what you've said has made much difference from my original point.  But the reason I like these discussions is every now and then, certainly not often, we run across someone who can fill in holes.. or realign the knowledge we have.   I'm listening.

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Ray

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #115 on: September 04, 2013, 05:23:54 am »

The entire situation in Syria is just so unbelievably sad and tragic I wouldn't know where to begin in offering advice or suggesting a solution.
But instinctively I feel we should stay the hell out of such a place. Let the Syrians sort out their own mess, particularly considering that there is no united view of the United Nations.

All wars are an abomination. You'd think we would be smart enough, after such a long history of well-documented, continual wars stretching back to the dawn of civilization, to avoid them, in our modern age of relative prosperity and high education.

Not so, apparently. I struggle to understand how nations, organisations, and groups can behave so stupidly. It's as though there is some unthinking, completely animal behaviour at work that has no connection with being human.
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #116 on: September 04, 2013, 07:07:53 am »

At least.  Let's try and clarify this a bit more.

I said "Bombs are just chemicals too.  And chemicals have completely predictable fallout regions" 

You said .. well a lot but I think this was most germane "
Explosives don't kill by their toxic effect:"

We all knew this.  But, I think you are trying to say explosive behaviour is more predictable than chemical weapon behaviour.    I'd agree it is.  But for battle field purposes, drop a cluster bomb and cover a certain spread pattern (btw, I hate these almost as much as chems), drop a chem cannister and cover a certain spread pattern.  Both are predictable, but the prediction on both can change for many reasons.  Weather, ground type, and so on.

Tell us, what more are you trying to say that makes chems any more/less predictable than say a cluster munition?  From drop to dispersion.


Fair enough.  You can call me an "end user" and an observer of such.  So far very little of what you've said has made much difference from my original point.  But the reason I like these discussions is every now and then, certainly not often, we run across someone who can fill in holes.. or realign the knowledge we have.   I'm listening.


Steve and Peter - I think this is all getting a bit too 'techy' for this forum.  Peter was responding to my point about chemical versus conventional weapons, and I feel he has a good level of expertise with the former.  I am completely satisfied that Peter knows exactly what he's talking about and so I respect his position.  However I still cannot really see why the two types of weapon are segregated other than it suits us that they are.  We have huge arsenals of nuclear weapons, both strategic and tactical, and so obviously (particularly in the case of strategic) have scenarios in which we can contemplate mass slaughter of innocents.  But chemical weapons are much cheaper and low-tech and therefore available to more nations.  We cannot really use them because there would be a public outcry, so we are happy for them to be outlawed.  Leaders like Assad, possibly, have far fewer scruples about their use and in upsetting public opinion.

And as for Tim's point earlier (reply 97) about the unpleasantness of gasping for breath etc, I should think drowning in your own blood from a lung punctured from a bullet would be quite awful too.  My point still stands that the method of maiming and killing is much less important than the fact it is happening, and that the 'Red Line' is just giving the US a reason to get stuck in - in spite of the fact that most of the citizens of that country are against involvement.

Maybe zapping a few Syrian installations and widowing a few hundred women will work.  But historical precedent is not promising.

Jim

 
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hjulenissen

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #117 on: September 04, 2013, 07:15:45 am »

You know what it feels like to come close to dying from not being able to control your nervous system to the point you're grasping for every breath and suffering from violent convulsions/seizures worse than going through electro shock therapy without anesthesia? Yeah, I'ld say there's a big differences by comparison to being cut down by shrapnel or a bullet. I'ld bet anyone suffering under those conditions would prefer a bullet to the head without question.
I tried to raise this question earlier.

Are you certain that no conventional weapons can cause the agony that you are describing? I think that we may be surprised by the creativity (evil) shown by people trying to subdue other people using whatever means they have (e.g. dull knives).

-h
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stamper

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #118 on: September 04, 2013, 08:54:06 am »

Hopefully the chemical used wasn't anything like the chemical used in the link beneath. It seemed to have been effective and killed a lot of people. :o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange

Rocco Penny

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Re: Syrian crisis - what should be done?
« Reply #119 on: September 04, 2013, 09:01:12 am »

Forget the techy stuff for a second-

Forget the position of the US for a second-

Forget the "red line" for a second-

People will die if we attack Syria.
If you support an attack on Syria, you support the deaths of people
That's
YOU support the deaths of HUMAN BEINGS.
That's YOU

SUPPORT

THE

DEATHS

OF

HUMAN

BEINGS
There isn't another way of looking at it...
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