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Author Topic: Paper - where to begin?  (Read 2962 times)

Christian Carlsen

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Paper - where to begin?
« on: August 19, 2013, 05:04:49 pm »

Hi!

Today I recived my Epson 3880 - my first serious photoprinter and I really look forward to try it out. I have it set up and I have purchased the LL tutorial about printing, (which I am half way through) and just run a few testprints on some cheap HP photopaper that happened to be lying around. Since I live in a place where I have to buy most of my things online, Im kind of lost on what paper to buy. I realise from reading through posts here, that there are lots of opinions and tastes on the matter. However, my question to you, the more experienced printers is - where to begin? Is it possible to purchase sample packages from the different manufacturers? is there some types that are "middle of the road" that would be a good place to start. Do I buy A2 and cut it down or is it better to buy several formats of the same type?
All your advice regarding paper is highly appreciated - how should I go about it, starting from scratch?

thank you, sincerely

Christian
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2013, 05:40:05 pm »

I would start with a basic lustre finish paper in several sizes. Lustre because it's extremely forgiving and looks good with a variety of images. Also, it's cheap :). I've been buying Red River's Arctic Polar Satin for basic printing. I'd start with letter size and get the printer working properly, and get whatever larger sizes you'd like. The largest cut sheet I have purchased is 17x25, which makes a nice 16x24 inch print. But for most things I use 11x17 inch paper, since that fits in my printed portfolio book and also makes a common 11x14 size print.

You'll want to branch out to other types of paper, of course. There are so many really nice papers out there. I've had sampler packs from several manufacturers and would recommend trying them. One paper I've enjoyed lately is the Epson Exhibition Fiber paper -- I got some samples from a friend, and need to buy a box. Very nice stuff.

I've been having a blast with my 3800 for more than three years now -- hope you get as much enjoyment from this as I do.
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markmullen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2013, 05:46:52 pm »

I am reading this on tapatalk so can't see where you are but if you're in the UK Fotospeed sell sample packs of different papers for you to try. I tried loads when I bought my Pro 9000 Mk2 and ended up liking hahnemuhle Baryta FB350 the most.
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hugowolf

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2013, 09:02:09 pm »

You do not have your location in your profile, so that makes it difficult to recommend anything, because paper prices are very region dependent.

I would certainly recommend sample packs from Hahnemühle and Canson-Infinity.

But what sort of paper are you looking for? Resin coated photo paper, fibre based paper, or fine art paper?

And as you point out, paper quality is very subjective: someone has mentioned Red River (which I assume is only available in the US), but I find the stuff below middling to say the least.

Brian A
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BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 02:04:52 am »

I think Epson Premium Semi-Gloss is an excellent paper to practice on.  Do a lot of printing and your workflow will start to fall into place and become second-nature.  I now use Canson Platine almost exclusively -- lovely hand, lovely finish, and no chemical brighteners.  Certainly not cheap, but the seduction and reward of printing on very nice papers are pleasures in themselves.  --Barbara
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Rhossydd

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 03:02:37 am »

Hi Christian, welcome to Lula.

Start with Epson papers. The default supplied icc profiles are very good and will help get you to speed with the printer and printing at this level.

Buying A2 and cutting down may not be a good approach, unless you have a good A2 guillotine already. Start with some A4 and maybe a small pack of A3 and see how you get on.

Once you're happy with the OEM basics, then is the time to look to alternatives. This is very much a matter of taste and what suits your particular photography. Most of the top paper manufacturers offer trial packs and they offer a great way to discover what their various offering are actually like 'in hand'.
For me I find that the low gloss Baryta papers works well with the Epson inkset, eg Harman by Hahnemuhle, for special display prints, but for most every day prints Olmec and Jessops gloss is a very good and cost effective paper.

One other issue not mentioned is finding a decent online supplier who will package paper well. There's nothing worse than waiting for a pack of big expensive paper to arrive, then finding one corner has been bashed up in transit and is unusable and has to be returned. Find out how good a supplier is before committing to a big purchase.
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PeterAit

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 09:46:07 am »

My advice, which is based on my own experience, is to not think much about papers now. Get a good quality paper, such as Epson Premium Luster Photo Paper, and teach yourself how to get the best prints possible from your printer. It's not super-expensive so you won't be hesitant to do lots of test printing. Then you can start looking at some other papers - but don't expect paper choice to make a big difference (other than the major categories of matte, gloss, satin and use or non-use of optical brighteners). I went thru the paper testing phase early on and wasted a lot of time, ink, and money learning that paper choice is not what makes or breaks a print. I now use Epson Exhibition Fiber for all "final" paper prints.
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 10:24:47 am »

Thank you so much guys, your replies have been truly helpful!

It makes sense, as you advice, to just stick with good epson paper, for now, and concentrate on getting the settings right as well as develop my workflow. So I´ve ordered some EPSON PREMIUM Semi -Gloss paper in A3, since I found out, I have access to a very good cutter.
@Brian A: Im located in Denmark.
Ive been trying to find sample packs but they seem very hard to come across here so I have do some digging around Europe. @markmullen:  Ive written Photospeed, but no reply yet.

again, thank you all who replied for great advice.

regards
Christian
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Dale_Cotton2

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 10:38:43 am »

[OK: I see you've responded while I was writing this. That'll learn me for being so long-winded. First, here in North America I'm jealous you have access to A3 and the other A sizes. ;) Second, Epson Semi-gloss is at least as good as the Epson Luster I suggest. I actually prefer the Semi-gloss, but it's more expensive and less common here.]

I'm going to second and elaborate on the excellent advice previous responders have written:

Notice that the 3880 has two pure black ink cartridges. The matte black is specialized for use with matte surface papers. The photo black is for photo-finish papers -- anything with a bit of sheen or glossiness to the printable surface. At this point in time matte surface is probably primarily used for the reproduction of watercolour paintings, although a number of black-and-white photographers also favour it. More about matte printing below.

By far your safest course is to use Epson Ultra Premium Photo Paper Luster as your first paper. Your printer has a built-in profile for most Epson inkjet papers, including this one. This paper comes as close as any to minimizing the difference between what you see on your monitor and what you get on your print and closely resembles the commercial photo papers you've likely handled all your life. Once you get your workflow ironed out for this paper, and if you want to save a little money, you can buy whichever less-expensive clone of it is available in your part of the world.

Epson Ultra Premium Luster is an excellent example of a resin-coated, or RC, photo paper. It may look "plastic", or at least highly artificial, but it's actually just a standard wood pulp substrate with an ink-receptive coating on one side, followed by a polyethelene coating on both sides. Finally, a texture is stamped into the printable side to dispel glare. This makes for a tough, flexible, waterproof, and wide-gamut medium. If you class yourself as a documentary and/or snapshot photographer, rather than an art photographer, a good RC paper will likely be your stock-in-trade.

IAC, once you become proficient with Ultra Premium Luster and clones, you can begin to experiment. Among RC papers, words like Gloss, Luster, Semi-gloss (as Barbara mentioned), Satin, and Semi-matte simply refer to the artificial texture stamped into the printable surface. To use one of these non-Epson RC papers, simply tell the printer driver that you're using the Epson paper that most nearly resembles the non-Epson paper you're actually using. Hopefully, the paper's packaging or the manufacturer's web site will indicate exactly which Epson paper choice to make.

Leaving RC behind, non-RC papers, including matte surface and fibre photo papers, are both more expensive and more fragile -- these are definitely meant to be framed behind glass. In theory, these are also archival and are meant for the museum and fine art trade, but once you've handled a good example you may become hooked on the premium spread, so take care. ;)

Many non-RC but still photo black ink papers, including the high-quality baryta fibre papers many of us on this forum favour, will give acceptable, or nearly acceptable, results if you simply tell the printer driver that you're using Ultra Premium Luster, then set the platen gap to the appropriate thickness. Ilford Gold Fibre Silk is an example of a museum-grade paper that will work well using this approach.

As others have mentioned, letter-size sample packs are available from many companies. To use these you'll need to learn how to download, install, then access the specific profile for each paper from the manufacturer's web site. Ask here if the on-line instructions are not sufficiently clear.

The final frontier is to experiment with matte surface papers (which require you to switch to matte-black ink) with their limited gamut and less-than-black blacks. Be aware that every time you switch from "gloss" (AKA photo) paper to matte you're incurring a few dollar's hit in lost ink due to the printer flushing the black ink line.

[BTW: if you need to use your 3880 to print an occassional word-processing document on plain old letter paper, you don't need to switch to matte black. Just leave the paper type set to whatever paper it defaults to.]

Buy whatever sheet size you think you'll use most often. If you want to print small tests from time to time, using a razor knife and straight edge you can always cut a sheet in half or smaller, down to the minimum 4x6 inch (I believe) size the printer can work with. As you mention, cutting A2 in half will give you two A3s, cutting A3s in half will give you two A4s. Super A3 cut in half gives a non-standard, but quite usable size as well. That said, cutting without a dedicated paper cutter can be tedious, since you have to make the appropriate measurements for each sheet.
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 06:30:06 am »

WOW Dale, what a great post  :) Thank you for, what is almost, a crash course in the fundamentals of paper! (I had to print your post :-))
 
I didnt know about the matte paper ink in the 3880 - and this is certainly something to try out further, but first things first, as you suggest!

Is there a way, in which to distinguish between RC and non-RC papers. Ilford are so kind to mark their papers RC or FB, but Epson doesnt. Is it safe to assume, that unless specified, a quality photpaper is a RC?

I will still try to find some sample packs for future tryouts. So much to learn!

again - a big thank you.

best
Christian
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 07:15:20 am »


Is there a way, in which to distinguish between RC and non-RC papers. Ilford are so kind to mark their papers RC or FB, but Epson doesnt. Is it safe to assume, that unless specified, a quality photpaper is a RC?


No, there are quality photo papers that have very good coatings applied on perfect cotton or alpha cellulose bases without polyethylene foil barriers. Their names usually refer to Fiber or Baryta. There are also quality photo papers with PE foil barriers. There are lower quality PE foil papers and lower quality photo papers with other kind of barriers. There are lower quality photo papers with no barriers. Quality is a set of conditions. Image quality is one condition, the amount of ink it can handle without warping is another, the OBA content and where applied counts and the weight of the paper. For longevity of the paper white you should check Aardenburg-Imaging. The best tested RC paper (Canon one) is no longer distributed, which is a shame.

No, and with or without the Resin Coated description in the distributor's catalog it is still not always clear. With some educated guesswork, on at least half of the RC papers that I measured for SpectrumViz I checked whether there were barriers on the paper base (inkjet coating goes on top of the front barrier!) and whether that were PE foils or a kind of polymer sprayed/dipped layer. I only added them in the RC category if they had PE foil barriers. Could be that a few other ones slipped through. If you want to test it: cut a 1/6" wide strip, split one end a bit, dip it in warm water so it soaks, split further and scratch off paper lint + coating with a fingernail, dip again, pull at each side so you see typical stretch and shrink of the foil. The front barrier foil will be white, the back one transparent.

See my sig for the categorization of inkjet papers that I made.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 11:58:18 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 07:19:48 am »

Fantastic, Ernst!

both your explanation and your Spectrumviz!!! Very thorough - Thank you :)

this forum is amazing :)

Regards

Christian
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JRSmit

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 08:04:21 am »

Christian,

What software will you use to print?
It makes a difference on the settings in the software used for printing and in the printer interface itself.

BTW: just for starting the recommended epson luster or semigloss both are very fine.


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Jan R. Smit

fike

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 09:34:13 am »

Here are a couple suggestions that are more about the process of selecting a paper

* Create your own sample image collage that represents the colors and styles of photos you frequently photograph. Print it on many different papers brands and finishes
* Settle on two or three papers and stick with them so that you can become more proficient with them
* When evaluating prints (papers), examine them closeup and from far away.  Different attributes are revealed at different distances.
* Buy some sample of the best (often the most expensive) papers and make some samples.  Decide if the expense is worth it for you.

On the other hand, you can just print on Epson paper and be done with it. Their papers are quite good and you can achieve great things without having to put yourself through all this analysis.
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2013, 02:14:02 pm »

Christian,

What software will you use to print?
It makes a difference on the settings in the software used for printing and in the printer interface itself.

BTW: just for starting the recommended epson luster or semigloss both are very fine.






Hi

I will be using lightroom 5 primarily and perhaps photoshop in a few instances. Right now im reading Schewe's book; the Digital Print. I just started it, but I guess he will cover some of this as well. So far, he seems very thorough.

Thank you

Regards

Christian
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2013, 02:20:17 pm »

Hi Fike

That is a good idea, so I have some solid grounds of comparison. Perhaps make a small collection that covers different aspects of the types of pictures I like to make. An other thing I thought about is trying the same file in different print sizes to see how details are handled. Im making a a run of tests this weekend.

Thank you


Regards

Christian
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Christian Carlsen

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Re: Paper - where to begin?
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2013, 02:26:45 pm »

I just want to put out a big - THANK YOU - to you kind people who have replied to my post. It makes a newbie like me feel welcome on LuLa and Im highly impressed by the knowledge you have. It is a fantastic help!

Regards

Christian
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