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Author Topic: Halo problem when darkening blue skies  (Read 20901 times)

Ray

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2013, 02:55:25 AM »

Oh yeah, much better. I like the way you brought out all the detail in the wagon undercarriage that was completely obscured in shadow.

Hey, I guess we're a PP team.  ;D

That's the great thing about Photoshop. One can endlessly adjust color and contrast till one is satisfied with the result. But one should bear in mind that not everyone's eyesight is the same. As people get older they tend to become less sensitive to the color blue, so it would not be surprising if an older person were to prefer over-saturated blue skies.  ;)
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2013, 12:10:28 PM »

This halo problem from darkening blue skies for b&w conversion is one of the reasons I stick with film and contrast filters for b&W landscape.

I hear you. Had exactly the same approach for the same reason. Until I tried Silver Efex Pro. Just do not darkien blue in LR/ARC and apply the appropriate filter in SFX. No halos :)

I still have my RZ67, but it is not used anymore.

I still think it is a serious flaw in ACR and I hope they will realize it at some stage and correct it.
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Stéphane

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2013, 06:22:19 PM »

I hear you. Had exactly the same approach for the same reason. Until I tried Silver Efex Pro. Just do not darkien blue in LR/ARC and apply the appropriate filter in SFX. No halos :)

I still have my RZ67, but it is not used anymore.

I still think it is a serious flaw in ACR and I hope they will realize it at some stage and correct it.

Do you see this halo flaw on all images of leaves surrounded by light blue sky backdrop made darker in ACR/LR? This has not been my experience with my Pentax PEFs, so I'm wondering how this can be considered a flaw with just ACR/LR.

In fact here's a sample of no halo leaf with a darkened blue sky edited in ACR 4.6. The center inset is at 300% view.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 07:48:36 PM by Tim Lookingbill »
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2013, 01:31:37 AM »

Do you see this halo flaw on all images of leaves surrounded by light blue sky backdrop made darker in ACR/LR?

Maybe not on every picture, but on many. I'd say most of the cases of objects on blue sky background. Branches come to mind.

I say it is a flaw in ACR/LR because every single time I tried a picture with that problem in another RAW converter, it only appeared in ACR/LR.

Now, I do not actually darken blue skies. Doing only B&W, I get the problem when I use yellow, orange and red filtering. But I dont have the problem if I do the filtering in Silver Efex Pro.
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Stéphane

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2013, 03:28:08 PM »

Quote
I say it is a flaw in ACR/LR because every single time I tried a picture with that problem in another RAW converter, it only appeared in ACR/LR.

Then it is a flaw only with your images AND ACR/LR, not with everyone else.

From what I'm observing and to be more specific in an attempt to deal with all possible variables as to the cause, I would say this most likely has something to do with a combination of lens, angle of light to lens, camera brand/model, sensor type/manufacturer and the information Adobe has access to in order to mitigate this type of aberration within their specific demosaic algorithm and other pre-preview adjustments.

To say it is a flaw caused only by ACR/LR isn't being very accurate or fair to Adobe engineers. I don't experience this halo on my 6MP Pentax DSLR with my kit lens, but I do on a few of my old film legacy lenses that Adobe has no clue about. My digital lens has electronics that communicate with my camera and its relationship with its sensor and the resultant data processed through the A/D converter that delivers the Raw data for Adobe to create default previews.

ACR/LR is doing something right in my case with what little info they have about my camera/lens/sensor combo to work with so I can't agree with you that it's solely a flaw with ACR/LR.
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2013, 03:51:56 PM »

Then it is a flaw only with your images AND ACR/LR, not with everyone else.

From what I'm observing and to be more specific in an attempt to deal with all possible variables as to the cause, I would say this most likely has something to do with a combination of lens, angle of light to lens, camera brand/model, sensor type/manufacturer and the information Adobe has access to in order to mitigate this type of aberration within their specific demosaic algorithm and other pre-preview adjustments.


As you wish. Others must be dreaming too.
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Stéphane

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2013, 04:04:57 PM »

As you wish. Others must be dreaming too.

How many do you count in your consensus of dreamers? Was it accurately derived? This is the first I've heard of these halos being a game changer in preventing a photographer from creating great looking images with ACR/LR and I've been online talking with digital imaging crowd since around 2001.

I'll give you an example of what some of these variables can do to an image when pixel peeping at 300-400% zooms in ACR.

Below is a 400% ACR preview of blue sky backlit tree branches/leaves taken with my Pentax 35-105mm legacy film lens and my Pentax DSLR to show you what a particular lens & sensor brings to demosaicing algorithms. I can't get these types of halo extremes with the same ACR tool adjustments with similar shots taken with my digital kit lens. I don't know why that is but it seems my film lenses can create some very colorful halos using this tool.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 04:08:51 PM by Tim Lookingbill »
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »

Tim, you're right.
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Stéphane

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2013, 04:14:49 PM »

Tim, you're right.

This isn't a battle over who is right, Stephane. It's about having as much as possible all the accurate information available for others to make good decisions on the tools they choose to use.

I don't give a rat's patootie who's right about a point. I just want useful information and so do others. Saying a piece of software is flawed just from judging microscopic halos in a high rez image isn't useful information.
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2013, 04:56:51 PM »

Fine, I'll do it.

I took a picture I remembered had the problem in a particularly severe way. The picture was taken with a Canon 5D, not exactly exotic at the time. This with the process version of LR 4.4:

Original picture, default LR 4 rendering:




Default LR B&W rendering with all cursors to zero:




Branches on the right in the previous photo:




Sky darkened in LR:




Branches on the right in previous picture:




Pinetree trunk and branches:




Sky darkened with Nik Silver Efex Pro as a smart filter in PS:




Branches in previous photo:



Pinetree trunk in previous picture:



So there.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 01:33:01 AM by StephaneB »
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Stéphane

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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2013, 05:03:50 PM »

Images aren't showing up, Stephane.

You may need to provide crops to keep it at a reasonable size. Notice the sizes of my uploaded screenshots. And they need to be in jpeg format.
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2013, 05:09:09 PM »

Images aren't showing up, Stephane.

You may need to provide crops to keep it at a reasonable size. Notice the sizes of my uploaded screenshots. And they need to be in jpeg format.

No, really? Duh. Thanks for your enlightening teachings.
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Stéphane

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daws

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2013, 06:40:42 PM »

No, really? Duh. Thanks for your enlightening teachings.

Two thoughts Stephane:

1. Your images didn't post.
2. You're sorta acting like a jerk.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2013, 09:17:06 PM »

Correction. I was wrong on the claim about my film legacy lens as the cause for extreme colored halos when applying Chromatic Aberration adjustments. It does the same on shots with my kit lens only I don't have to use the tool as much.

Also the image of the halo-less orange autumn leaves against a deep blue sky posted above was shot with the same 35-105mm film legacy lens.

So I can't explain the reason why I don't get leaf edge halos in ACR/LR like others are getting.
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2013, 01:33:44 AM »

You're right on the jerk act. Sorry about that. I edited the links, hopefully it works now.
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Stéphane

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Oldfox

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2013, 03:37:45 AM »

@StephaneB. My virus scanner tells me that there is a virus at your website. Maybe you want to check that.
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bernie west

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2013, 07:18:22 AM »

Those comparisons are quite startling. 

An interesting experiment to try might be to convert a zeroed out raw in LR to a tiff, and then work on that tiff in LR.  I wonder if the halos would be there or not if you tried darkening the sky on a tiff version.
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StephaneB

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #57 on: August 17, 2013, 07:40:00 AM »

An interesting experiment to try might be to convert a zeroed out raw in LR to a tiff, and then work on that tiff in LR.  I wonder if the halos would be there or not if you tried darkening the sky on a tiff version.

Good idea. I just tried, same problem.
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Stéphane

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Rory

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #58 on: August 17, 2013, 12:27:00 PM »

Just for the Record Tim, I have been seeing this halo behavior since Lr 1.0.  It has been discussed in the past.  It takes a fairly extreme adjustment to manifest.  It is particularly problematic using an adjustment brush in auto mask mode.

Rory
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Halo problem when darkening blue skies
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2013, 12:40:26 PM »

Just for the Record Tim, I have been seeing this halo behavior since Lr 1.0.  It has been discussed in the past.  It takes a fairly extreme adjustment to manifest.  It is particularly problematic using an adjustment brush in auto mask mode.

Rory

Well that makes several people that have this problem, Rory.

Is that useful information in getting it solved? No.

Does your input prove it's wide spread? No.

In an attempt to draw useful information out of you I have to ask you did anyone at Adobe or anyone else offer any causes or solutions in those past discussions?

So far from this discussion it appears the solution as Stephane has demonstrated is to use Nik Silver Efex Pro as a Smart Object or use another Raw converter.
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