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Author Topic: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs  (Read 18620 times)

Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 09:48:04 AM »

Leaf are still supporting their backs from 2005. To the best of my knowledge all Aptuses are still serviceable.

The question was: Do you know any company manufacturing cameras which include digital electronic parts and which warranties service for longer than 5 years? You are not answering that question. Of course there are electronic cameras which are still serviceable after 5 years.

A positive answer would be from a company that would warranty now that their cameras will be serviced in 10 years (or would have written so in the past).

Since you asked...

  • Phase One provides guaranteed service on all P, P+, IQ, and IQ2 backs. The first of these was released in 2004. I see no signs of this support ending anytime soon.
  • Phase One discontinued guaranteed service of H series (not to be confused with backs which mount to an H body) backs last year, the first of which was released in 1998 and the last of which was released in 2003. They will still gladly take such a back and do a service check and can do a variety of repairs for them like sync port replacements, but they cannot guarantee it will be repairable as they lack certain internal components which can no longer be sourced.
  • Phase One provides (via their dealers) up to a five year initial warranty on new IQ and IQ2 backs and up to a three year initial warranty on new P+ backs.
  • Phase One will gladly provide (via their dealers) warranty extensions in increments of one year for as long as the user wishes to extend it. This applies for all P, P+, IQ, and IQ2 backs, so, if it made sense for your business, you could continue warranty on a P20 or P25 released in 2004. In practice I don't know any of our customers that have a warranty still on a P25, but I do know a small number that have continued their warranty on P45 units (released in 2005); all are product/catalog shooters for whom the back is still a daily workhorse and the cost of the warranty is more like a form of insurance which guarantees they won't have to make room in their budget for an unexpected camera-replacement or camera-repair cost.
  • Phase One has also provided continued software support for every single-shot back they have ever produced. You can use Capture One v7 in Windows 64 or OSX 10.8 with a Lightphase back released in 1998; in fact because of improvements to the underlying raw processing math the image quality will be significantly better with that combination than it was the day it was released.

Leaf provides service on Valeo 17 and later (released 2003). This of course includes the more recent Aptus, Aptus S, Aptus II, and Credo lines.

Both Leaf and Phase backs can be used on any compatible body (not just "matched" pairs) with a pretty good history of both forward and backward compatibility. For instance a P25 from 2004 works on a DF+ from 2012 an IQ from 2011 works on an AFD1 from 2002 (this combo is not officially supported and is a bit buggy sometimes, but given the age difference it works pretty darn well). This is relevant to the discussion at hand because if a body becomes unserviceable (i.e. is dropped off a cliff) a replacement body can be had from any source (KEH, eBay, forums, dealer, rental house etc) this increases the long term viability of a given back or body.

BobDavid

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 09:55:22 AM »

At least a few regional hassey reps assured folks that their backs would be supported for ten years. Just 'sayin.
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TMARK

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 10:15:21 AM »

They seem to be flailing around.  Lunar, the Steller.  Now this.  They make a fine product, no doubt, but the impression is that the company is screwy and desperate.  I'm not sure if that's the case, but giving that Italian gentlement who was head of product marketing at DeLonghi might not have been the best idea. 


Actually this announcement was made over a month ago and the discussion since has been heated, but yes, it can only benefit Phase/Leaf.
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Douglas Fairbank

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 10:44:36 AM »

There are good reasons and bad reasons for a company closing support for a certain model and I cant list them all here and I don't know what factors played a part in these changes.
But there are other things that are not under the control of a company that effect long term plans. For example changes in health and safety regulations among other things can effect the supply of components and a redesign of the product might not make commercial sense, you cant look into a crystal ball to see what legislation or ground-breaking technology is coming.
Service and support must be profitable where the product has a long life with a supply of components continuously made or set aside, the standard of the servicing must maintain the original standards of the product. If these are not fulfilled it will be a drain on the company and is untenable. The standard of service enjoyed by V system owners was a direct result of the longevity of the design and continuous production.
All the readers of this forum know what their equipment is and how it differs from the mainstream of photography and is is not realistic to compare it to mass produced items.
With the coming of 3D printing mechanical servicing may actually become cheaper (unlikely) but niche electronic designs are something else.
I don't think anybody with any affection for medium format will be smiling.

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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 11:23:30 AM »

Since you asked...

  • Phase One provides guaranteed service on all P, P+, IQ, and IQ2 backs. The first of these was released in 2004. I see no signs of this support ending anytime soon.
  • Phase One discontinued guaranteed service of H series (not to be confused with backs which mount to an H body) backs last year, the first of which was released in 1998 and the last of which was released in 2003. They will still gladly take such a back and do a service check and can do a variety of repairs for them like sync port replacements, but they cannot guarantee it will be repairable as they lack certain internal components which can no longer be sourced.
  • Phase One provides (via their dealers) up to a five year initial warranty on new IQ and IQ2 backs and up to a three year initial warranty on new P+ backs.
  • Phase One will gladly provide (via their dealers) warranty extensions in increments of one year for as long as the user wishes to extend it. This applies for all P, P+, IQ, and IQ2 backs, so, if it made sense for your business, you could continue warranty on a P20 or P25 released in 2004. In practice I don't know any of our customers that have a warranty still on a P25, but I do know a small number that have continued their warranty on P45 units (released in 2005); all are product/catalog shooters for whom the back is still a daily workhorse and the cost of the warranty is more like a form of insurance which guarantees they won't have to make room in their budget for an unexpected camera-replacement or camera-repair cost.
  • Phase One has also provided continued software support for every single-shot back they have ever produced. You can use Capture One v7 in Windows 64 or OSX 10.8 with a Lightphase back released in 1998; in fact because of improvements to the underlying raw processing math the image quality will be significantly better with that combination than it was the day it was released.

This is obviously a better service than the one Hasselblad provides, but is still not an answer to the original question: Phase one never committed to repair any digital back beyond 5 years after date of sale. And as Douglas Fairbank pointed out a post above, it is unlikely that any company is doing that, because 5 years is a very long time for electronic products.

Don't misread me: I am very impressed by the level of support provided by Phase one and quite disappointed by Hasselblad announcement. But I know that support for electronics is usually pretty poor after a few years and that does not only concerns MF cameras.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 11:25:45 AM by jerome_m »
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2013, 11:29:07 AM »

Warranty and support are two different issues.  Support implies that they cannot be repaired.

The message, as perceived, is that H3D and earlier models can't be fixed if they go bad.  That is not what they are saying, but that is the perception.

Indeed this is not what they are saying. Hasselblad will still repair the mechanics on the bodies and still services backs on some H3D models (e.g. the H3D-31). The backs are still supported by Phocus. Backs like the 22 and 39 mpix can still be adjusted or their IR window can still be exchanged.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2013, 11:34:17 AM »

Service and support must be profitable where the product has a long life with a supply of components continuously made or set aside, the standard of the servicing must maintain the original standards of the product.

I do not agree.

Service and support should be set up efficiently such that it's not a huge resource-drain for the overall company, but it need not turn a profit.

It's a perfectly viable business model to say that your service and support departments function to reinforce customer loyalty and insure brand value is maintained. Ideally a service/support department functions so well, and is needed so infrequently, that customer interactions with that department are so positive they serve as defacto marketing.

I've personally had experiences with service/repair on products I owned (outside my day job) where I was so impressed that my likelihood of recommending the product to others, or to personally buy more in the future, was influenced in a way no marketing campaign could ever could. I think about these personal experiences anytime I'm involved with one of our customers in a repair/service/support situation.

pedro39photo

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2013, 01:02:12 PM »

This will be a big hammer in the price of the used hasselblad market...we will see a big price drop of the H3D 39MP for example.
And its very important because for a vast number of photographer they start in the DMF with used systems.

After this we will see again anyone pushing 4500$ for a used H3D 39MP mark I ????

I love hasselblad, i start DMF with a used H3D 22MP 2 years ago and now a H3DII 39MP and the experience and the support have been 5***** stars, super great and fast feedback of my questions allways.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2013, 01:35:47 PM »

What's the situation in the DSLR world on this kind of thing? Not that you can compare it, at those prices it's not that big a deal. This is more in comparison to the car world.

Nick-T

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2013, 03:51:51 PM »

This will be a big hammer in the price of the used hasselblad market...we will see a big price drop of the H3D 39MP for example.


Good news then! The armchair experts on this forum are always asking for cheaper MFDB..

bcooter

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2013, 04:00:39 PM »

I do not agree.

Service and support should be set up efficiently such that it's not a huge resource-drain for the overall company, but it need not turn a profit.

It's a perfectly viable business model to say that your service and support departments function to reinforce customer loyalty and insure brand value is maintained. Ideally a service/support department functions so well, and is needed so infrequently, that customer interactions with that department are so positive they serve as defacto marketing.

I've personally had experiences with service/repair on products I owned (outside my day job) where I was so impressed that my likelihood of recommending the product to others, or to personally buy more in the future, was influenced in a way no marketing campaign could ever could. I think about these personal experiences anytime I'm involved with one of our customers in a repair/service/support situation.


Doug,

I agree, but really I don't think it works that way.

I just bought a car last year.  Great dealer service, actually more than perfect.  The dealer's margins had to be tiny in the way they worked with me.

Had a friend ask about my car, gave them the dealers card, explained how they went above and beyond and he went and paid more for another brand and now doesn't like what he bought.

I've seen this a lot, in cameras, cars, computers . . .

People buy what they want to buy, no matter how much info you furnish, unless it's negative.

IMO

BC

Ben Rubinstein

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 06:34:28 AM »

Yeah but I went back to my dealer multiple times when I was buying cause they didn't quibble on service. Perhaps others will ignore me but I know what brands and stores I prefer to buy from when I'm dealing professionally, i.e. when I can't afford to lose service.

design_freak

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 09:29:03 AM »

Hooray, another wise move  ;D
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bcooter

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2013, 02:59:37 AM »

Hooray, another wise move  ;D

That's really not a fair statement.

I guess it's easy for me to say since I don't own a h3d, but nobody services electronic stuff forever.  I'm amazed my p21+ and my p30+ are even allowed in Phase One's software and that they continue to improve their files.  OK I guess I should say real lucky.

Anyway, the high end market  .  . . actually the market for all cameras has taken a hit in the last couple of years.   The camera of choice of the millenials and their parents is a cell phone and those amateurs that use to load up one roll of neg film a week in their Bronicas, Blads and Nikons kept us all in professional equipment. 

Lately Hasselblad has taken a lot of heat for the lumina and in a way I can see some of it is justified, but they're just pushing for a market that a lot of companies is going for.  I saw on the Wall Street Journal Yesterday, $5,000 lingerie with real gold stitching.   There market is Russia and some of the Arab states.  I would imagine that is the same for the lumina.

The only thing I can really fault hasselblad for is their software.  It's not bad, it's not great and honestly if you buy an h5d at this point it really should be great.

Other than that, they're just trying to turn a profit.

What I find more interesting is the fact that a large percentage of the younger assistants I work with all want to shoot some kind of film camera.  I guess they feel they missed something (maybe they did) and film cameras are cheap, but their next choice is a cell phone.

That can't be good for any of us.

IMO

BC

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2013, 03:56:19 AM »

Hi,

I don't really think that keeping support for old cameras is much of an effort, unless there is a disruptive change like Apple switching software platform to 64-bit, and even a disruptive change can be handled with good coding practices.

I nevertheless feel that the present way with inconsistent raw formats is crazy. In film days we had a lot of slide film options but a single process, E6. Well, except for Kodachrome, of course. No one invented a new process for each film.

Best regards
Erik



I guess it's easy for me to say since I don't own a h3d, but nobody services electronic stuff forever.  I'm amazed my p21+ and my p30+ are even allowed in Phase One's software and that they continue to improve their files.  OK I guess I should say real lucky.


IMO

BC

torger

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2013, 07:01:29 AM »

Owning old mf gear is a risk. The system is designed to stay with the upgrade programs. For a professional I would not recommend to enter mf if you cannot motivate the cost of staying with the latest and have the proper service programs. For an amateur like myself, second hand market has never been better, but don't buy for more than you can lose. Phase and Leaf should have credit for their long term support though, but electronics cannot be serviced forever, spare parts stop being manufactured.
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pedro39photo

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2013, 12:40:21 PM »

The Hasselblad have a large number of DMF user that still use the olds H1/H2/H3D and several love the H body system and lenses and use Phase backs.

Anyone looking to enter in DMF, could start with a old H1/H3D body and invest lost of money in Hasselblad lens, and them upgrade for a new generation system like the H3DII or H4D.

But with this news of no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital, maybe the new DMF user chose to start with other systems...

Anyone now if its possible to buy a H4Dx with good trade in price if anyone with a old H1/H2/H3D have a fatal malfunction with no repair?
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad no longer servicing H3D (or earlier) digital backs
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2013, 03:25:13 PM »

The electronic components themselves have a very short obsolescence period.  Think about getting ram for an old MAC or getting a replacement disk drive reader.  I guess these parts fail less often, but it might be hard for a company to keep a stock of say sensor chips sitting around where the cost is really high so I can understand the service problems on something like a digital back.   

But you have to wonder what is going on at the top of Hb just looking at the trajectory ... the lunar, the discontinuation of the V, news about another consumer camera instead of new MF backs, and now the service thing. Hmmm...    Hopefully they will offer people with these non serviceable backs a nice trade in price.

For me, I have a CF-528 which I use on my Rollei 6008AF and not a H camera, so even if they offered me a big trade in value on that back I wouldn't be able to take it. 




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