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Author Topic: Colorport patchsheet by default barrier between patches, i1Profiler not?  (Read 3991 times)

JRSmit

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    • Jan R. Smit Fine Art Printing Specialist

I have been learning to use i1Photo Pro 2 in the past couple of weeks, btw: i am surprised how little useful help or info there is provided by X-rite with the product.
Thankfully there is a lot of good info on this forum ( and on several website of people active on this forum) on how to use i1Pro2 so progressing. I now work with 1005 patches, and profiles are quite good compared to the canned or colormunki photo. Smoother, less "wrinkles" when softproofing or printing a granger rainbow. On actual images also equal or better. The papers vary from fine-art to metallic. I also visually check the profiles using docbees profile manager.

This weekend i started looking at ColorPort. I noticed that cp by default has white or black barriers between the pathes in a row, whereas i1profiler does not. What would be better, with or without these barriers?
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Czornyj

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i1pro2 detects patches automatically, so it doesn't need any white/black barriers when scanning targets via i1Profiler.

On the other hand - in ColorPort i1Pro2 works only in legacy mode, and behaves just like an old i1Pro, so it's better to leave the barriers here.

Scott Martin

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This weekend i started looking at ColorPort. I noticed that cp by default has white or black barriers between the pathes in a row, whereas i1profiler does not. What would be better, with or without these barriers?

ColorPort uses the older patch layout approach that the i1Pro1 used. i1Profiler implements a whole new and far superior approach in i1Profiler for the i1Pro2 that includes the new sensor and use of the "Zebra Stripe" strip that results in far great success rates. Don't expect to see in the CP in the future. Use i1P if you can.

I was just using i1P's Measure Chart feature yesterday and taking the measurement data into an older RIP - Measuring with the i1Pro2 was much faster in i1P that it would have been in the RIP using an i1Pro1 device...

JRSmit

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Thanks for the feedback. I have made quite a few profiles now with i1Profiler. Works quite well. Certainly better that te profiles provided by paper manufacturer/supplier. Does crash sometimes, workaround is to exit and start after producing a couple of profiles. Still looking for a way to get the greys neutral, that is (almost) on the grey axis. Sofar all (various fine art, pe glos, -satin, -metallic) but an odd one have a deviation (mostly in the ~yellow direction) with its maximum halfway between black and white. This is visible when using docbees profile manager and use a grey stepwedge as testimage. On the testprints ( is use a testimage from: http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi048/essay.html) however there is little visible of this non neutrality.
Have been using the following patch set's: 815, 1005, 1728 . All printed on 2 or 4(in case of 1728) A4 papers. The grey neutral slider in profile settings has little effect on this.
 
Anyone a suggestion how to get the greys more neutral?
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Scott Martin

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Anyone a suggestion how to get the greys more neutral?

1) Are we talking about inkjet process? Or Silver Halide? Or solvent?
2) What measurement mode are you selecting after your finish measuring the target? M0 and M2 will change the gray axis ever so slightly, with M2 often being a little warmer. M0 is the default.
3) What rendering intent are you printing with?
4) What lights are you viewing prints under? Is metamerism at play? Have you viewed under daylight?
5) How are you determining gray axis neutrality?

If you're printing with Perceptual, you'll get a perceptual gray axis that's relative to the paper white color. So you'll see a cooler gray axis on bright white papers and a warmer gray axis on natural white papers. This is normal and what's needed for the tonality to look right.

One last suggestion is to choose a patch count that has a bunch of gray patches. In the Patch Set module you can increase the patch count by one and see the number of gray patches increase. Repeat this process until it suddenly hits  a combination with much fewer gray patches. Use a patch count value just before this point that maximizes the number of gray patches. This won't help the 'problem' you're having, but its a good policy and helps optimize the gray axis.

JRSmit

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Scott,

Thanks for the checklist.
1/ Inkjet (Epson 4900)
2/ Will double check and come back on it, depends on paper being profiled.
3/ Testprints are Perceptual.
4/ Daylight, halogen, inside room with mix of daylight through window-pane and halogen (not yet re-installed viewing booth with Solux).
5/ Via Docbees profile manager examining the 3D gamut with loaded a tiff with a grey values wedge. Note that visual check of testprint does not show the deviation as some hue or so on the grey wedges, so may well be the correction for the paper white. Will check and come back on it.
6/ Patch count of 815 and 1005 is indeed with max number of grey and nea grey patches, the 1728 is for sure not the max no of grey patches.



In the coming week i aim to have the solux viewing setup working again. Will giv
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Scott Martin

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Thanks for the checklist!

5/ Via Docbees profile manager examining the 3D gamut with loaded a tiff with a grey values wedge. Note that visual check of testprint does not show the deviation as some hue or so on the grey wedges, so may well be the correction for the paper white. Will check and come back on it.

OK, well I suspect that you're getting excellent gray balance relative to the paper white and this is more an issue with learning to read the results in Docbees Profile manager. Let us know what you find out!

JRSmit

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Thanks for the checklist!

OK, well I suspect that you're getting excellent gray balance relative to the paper white and this is more an issue with learning to read the results in Docbees Profile manager. Let us know what you find out!
Scott, I used colorport to measure on a printed grey-wedge (on the test-image) and get Lab values where largest value of a and b is about 0.4 at L=~50. The particular paper here is the Innova IFA24.
So my visual observation appears quite correct, i think.
I do not know at what values of a and b one can start to see the resulting colorcast on grey tones, is there a general rule here?

I will continue to measure (this evening) other papers the same way to see if this is also true for those as well.



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Scott Martin

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Scott, I used colorport to measure on a printed grey-wedge (on the test-image) and get Lab values where largest value of a and b is about 0.4 at L=~50. The particular paper here is the Innova IFA24.

And the white patch? The grays are relative to paper white right?

So my visual observation appears quite correct, i think.

Which was what? That it's not neutral? And by that do you mean colorimetrically neutral or perceptually neutral?

I do not know at what values of a and b one can start to see the resulting colorcast on grey tones, is there a general rule here?

Let's not forget about the relativity to paper white here. A perceptual gray balance scales the tonality from the color of paper white to the color of the DMax. While the DMax is often colorimetrically neutral, the paper white usually isn't. If the gray axis was colorimetrically neutral it would look terrible! A colorimetrically neutral gray axis on a natural white or let's say, warm white paper looks terrible (very cold)! A B&W image will only look 'neutral' when printed with a perceptually neutral gray axis that's relative to the paper white.

It's also worth saying that you can play around with the Optical Brightener Correction with the OBC Profiling mode in i1P but this is mostly for adding warmth on papers that contain lots of OBAs. I personally think you need to choose your paper carefully and not overthink i1P's gray axis rendering.

JRSmit

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Scott, the past days i aimed at responding to your points, but i ran into a situation that prints i make all have a magenta cast. Normally this would point to double profiling, but to my knowledge this is not the case. So i opened a new thread on this problem under Printer and Papers.
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Scott Martin

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Re: Colorport patchsheet by default barrier between patches, i1Profiler not?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2013, 10:56:15 PM »

I see! Well it's good to hear there's something else going on then...
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