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Author Topic: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor  (Read 5964 times)

ErikKaffehr

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P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« on: August 03, 2013, 02:22:50 am »

Hi,

Note: raw image is here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/ColorTuning/20130802-CF043653.iiq

The reasons I post this is:

1) There is a conception that Capture One has better colors than LR5. I have both and I am not really happy with some colors on my P45+ so I wanted to share what I see.

2) Wanted to see if DNG profiles help

3) Wanted to see if editing a DNG profile may help

The way I see it now, the Adobe standard profile is a good starting point. A DNG Profile may improve on the image, but not necessarily so.

Here is a small part of a P45+ image processed trough:

Capture One, Outdoor Daylight, Linear curve (top left)

LR5, Adobe Standard Profile (top right)

LR5, DNG Dual Illuminant Profile (based on midday sunlight) (bottom right)

LR5, DNG DI profile (like above) but having some tuning in DNG Profile Editor (left right)


Here are the original images: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/Color/ColorTuning/index.html

and a smaller version: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/Color/ColorTuning/small/index.html

Note 1: The color checker card is a printout of a synthetic color checker. It was just intended for reference adjusting the images. The printout is quite close to reference values,  all fields < 5dE, I guess. Color balance on lightest gray field, exposure and black level on white and black patch.

Note 2: The red in the flowers is outside Adobe RGB. I was considering to output the images in ProPhoto RGB, but monitors would not be able to show it anyway, so I used Adobe RGB.

Note 3: Color is in the eye of the beholder, however, the P45+ may be known for yellowish greens.

Note 4: In my eye, the greens/yellows in the Adobe DNG DI profile may be oversaturated. I tried to selectively reduce saturation in these areas in my adjusted DNG profile.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 04:47:23 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Schewe

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Re: Capture One and LR 5 color differences
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 02:27:10 am »

Best regards
Erik

So, what is your reason for posting? Do you have a question? Or a statement? Sorry, I just don't understand what your desire here is...yes, different processors will differ...yes different DNG profiles can also impact output...but what are you trying to accomplish?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Capture One and LR 5 color differences
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 02:33:39 am »

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for fast response.

Why my posting?

- Sharing experience?
- Food for thought?

Questions I may have been asking:

- I had some problems with rendition of Violet/Red using Adobe Standard profiles, using DNG profiles cured the issue, but gave me oversaturated yellows/greens.
- Can I get natural greens by manipulating the DNG Profile using DNG Profile Editor? (probably yes).
- Is color in Capture One so much better that it would motivate breaking parametric workflow in LR by converting images with C1 Pro? (probably not).

As an explanation to the last point. I am pretty enthusiastic about Lightroom and the parametric workflow it offers. The MFDB folks generally say that Capture One is needed to make best use of Phase One backs. BUT, using tiffs converted by C1 don't fit in my workflow. So I want to evaluate potential benefits of C1, but also see if I can tune LR5 to my needs/wants/taste.

Best regards
Erik

So, what is your reason for posting? Do you have a question? Or a statement? Sorry, I just don't understand what your desire here is...yes, different processors will differ...yes different DNG profiles can also impact output...but what are you trying to accomplish?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 03:00:54 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 04:02:46 am »

1. Whatever gave you the idea that you can print out the colorchecker and use it as some kind of reference? It completely changes the spectral characteristics of the chard and therefore is absolutely worthless and bears no relation whatsoever to the original.

2. You can not indiscriminately use the paper white as a reference for white balance because of the brightners which also influences the spectral characteristics etc.

3. You should realize that profiling a camera with a colorchecker is already stretching the metrics because of leverage. We are trying to determine an extremely large camera colorspace with a very limited subset of colors. You do not want to introduce any kind of error as that error will be significantly amplified in the profiling process.

4. You have previously posted a colorchecker passport shot which was overexposed. You also want to avoid that.

5. I am currently of the opinion that LR tends to oversaturate and possibly change the luminance of colors because of its contrast curve and how it is applied. I also get the impression that a lot of people that use the DNG profiler try to compensate for that behavior in the profile. This would be a very wrong approach to the problem as you are trying to correct non-linear errors before they are even introduced. This will lead to very unpredictable results where sometimes errors are nullified, but under other circumstances different errors may actually be exaggerated.

Number 5 may be what you are currently running into.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 04:35:14 am »

Hi,

As I clearly stated, I have used for adjusting the white and black points (in density and adjusting the white point). The reason I did this was that I wanted to have density references as I wanted to process the image in both LR5 and C1. Not paper white was used for WB but the gray field. I enclose the spectral density below. (I noticed that I wrote white field, but that was a misstatement).

I could have used my color checker passport, but it would be to tiny part of the image to be real use. Yes, I could ordered a normal size Color Checker, but waiting for it would eliminate my chance to do this test.

I don't know which color checker you refer to that has been overexposed. Could be the case, but now days I'm checking out most images with "raw digger". The DNG profiles were generated a color checker passport and bracketed exposures.

The spectral properties may play a lesser role than you suggest, as the comparison is based on the same image taken by the same sensor, so each program just sees tristimulus values anyway.

The reason I was looking into DNG profiles was in part that I have seen an issue in reproducing violet/red. Using a DNG profile solved that, but gave me oversaturated greens and yellows.

Best regards
Erik


1. Whatever gave you the idea that you can print out the colorchecker and use it as some kind of reference? It completely changes the spectral characteristics of the chard and therefore is absolutely worthless and bears no relation whatsoever to the original.

2. You can not indiscriminately use the paper white as a reference for white balance because of the brightners which also influences the spectral characteristics etc.




4. You have previously posted a colorchecker passport shot which was overexposed. You also want to avoid that.

5. I am currently of the opinion that LR tends to oversaturate and possibly change the luminance of colors because of its contrast curve and how it is applied. I also get the impression that a lot of people that use the DNG profiler try to compensate for that behavior in the profile. This would be a very wrong approach to the problem as you are trying to correct non-linear errors before they are even introduced. This will lead to very unpredictable results where sometimes errors are nullified, but under other circumstances different errors may actually be exaggerated.

Number 5 may be what you are currently running into.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 04:54:12 am by ErikKaffehr »
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32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 06:20:30 am »

Attached results for that original colorchecker passport shot. It was at the same location. I had to extrapolate the white patch. Results are for plain vanilla ICC conversion.
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32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 06:23:18 am »

These are the results for the printed version of the CC.
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32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 06:27:00 am »

These are thumbnails of the conversion based on the printed colorchecker:

A = WB multipliers taken from the colorchecker

B = WB multipliers taken from the vase (i.e. vase is considered gray)

C = WB multipliers taken from the backwall (i.e. the backwall is considered gray)

This is plain vanilla ICC conversion applied, with a brightness contrast adjustment.
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32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 06:32:02 am »

Additionally, i have seen several of your images that do not do the MF equipment you have any justice. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I get a distinct impression that the images have no lens corrections applied. Does LR not support the lenses you use via profiles? Does it properly apply chromatic aberration correction if you request it?

Here are some crops which imo show a significant different amount of microdetail. LR should be able to come close to this, although it may be somewhat harder to achieve with the multitude of options they have.
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32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 06:43:59 am »

For good measure, a comparison between a profile from the CC passport (left) vs the printed cc (right).
In my totally biased and not so humble opinion the differences are entirely attributable to the OBAs in the printed paper.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 07:54:31 am »

Hi,

LR has no lens profiles for Hasselblad V lenses. Chromatic aberration correction was on.

I will try to reshoot with a real color checker in a couple of days. You are probably right about the optical brighteners messing up grey balance.

Enclosed image:

left -> chromatic aberration corrections off
right -> chromatic aberrations corrections on

The lens is a Planar 80/2.8 CFE

Best regards
Erik


Additionally, i have seen several of your images that do not do the MF equipment you have any justice. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I get a distinct impression that the images have no lens corrections applied. Does LR not support the lenses you use via profiles? Does it properly apply chromatic aberration correction if you request it?

Here are some crops which imo show a significant different amount of microdetail. LR should be able to come close to this, although it may be somewhat harder to achieve with the multitude of options they have.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 08:04:27 am »

Hi,


I fail to see your point, I don't feel my image has less microdetail than yours (my to the left yours to the right) but yours is much better on the white text on the "simulated Macbeth card", but I think that is coming from demosaic and not from chromatic aberration.

LR has no lens profiles for Hasselblad V lenses, but I know I can build one of my own.

Anyway, thanks a lot for feedback! I felt that it was a bright idea to use my printed color checker for grey step reference and white balance, but you have quite a few arguments against it. I actually did consider optical brighteners, but felt they would not matter in this case. It seems I am wrong.

What is nice with a parametric workflow is that you can always go back, apply a new set of adjustments to the original image.

I would say I learned a lot as a result of this conversation.  

Best regards
Erik


Additionally, i have seen several of your images that do not do the MF equipment you have any justice. This is not a criticism, just an observation. I get a distinct impression that the images have no lens corrections applied. Does LR not support the lenses you use via profiles? Does it properly apply chromatic aberration correction if you request it?

Here are some crops which imo show a significant different amount of microdetail. LR should be able to come close to this, although it may be somewhat harder to achieve with the multitude of options they have.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 08:43:00 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

32BT

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 09:02:50 am »

I fail to see your point, I don't feel my image has less microdetail than yours (my to the left yours to the right)

Feel? You shouldn't judge microdetail with your gut, but with your eyes…  ;)

Do you see the "ringing" in your conversion?
If not, are you viewing on an LCD or CRT?

The ringing seems to coincide with the CA, which could mean that the sharpening is actually sharpening luminance residue from the CA.

The ringing obscures microcontrast. It does so for the entire image. It gives the impression of looking at an upscaled image that actually has lower resolution. It is very tiring to the eyes. I have to admit that i can't find the correct parameters in LR to get a similar result as in my conversion, but that may be bias since that is my exact problem with LR. Too many sliders that just don't quite do what you want.

(Note also that my images are jpg compressed which may obscure some of the effect.)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2013, 09:41:24 am »

Hi,

I am aware of the ringing. I am pretty sure that it is coming from my sharpening settings. It is coming from my use of deconvolution (detail fully to the right in LR). I have noticed it, and one of the results of our discussion may be that I use a different default on sharpening. On the other hand, I always have found that in the end, this is the sharpening I prefer.

Most images are not critically sharp, as critical sharpness only exists in a single plane. When shooting MF I also tended to use smaller apertures which need more sharpening because of diffraction. I expected MF to need less sharpening than my DSLRs, but I found that my settings work well for most images.

This image shows more ringing than I like, especially in the reds. The reds are sampled at half the linear resolution of the sensor. I didn't want to invent a special kind of sharpening for this image, as I try to keep as many factors constant as possible. Also, this thread is more about color than acutance.

Anyway, thanks a lot for all input. It will make my understanding of raw processing better, and it may also be beneficial to other photographers considering processing options.

Best regards
Erik



Feel? You shouldn't judge microdetail with your gut, but with your eyes…  ;)

Do you see the "ringing" in your conversion?
If not, are you viewing on an LCD or CRT?

The ringing seems to coincide with the CA, which could mean that the sharpening is actually sharpening luminance residue from the CA.

The ringing obscures microcontrast. It does so for the entire image. It gives the impression of looking at an upscaled image that actually has lower resolution. It is very tiring to the eyes. I have to admit that i can't find the correct parameters in LR to get a similar result as in my conversion, but that may be bias since that is my exact problem with LR. Too many sliders that just don't quite do what you want.

(Note also that my images are jpg compressed which may obscure some of the effect.)
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Re: P45+ colors, Capture One, LR5 and using DNG Profile Editor
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2013, 11:30:04 am »

I am aware of the ringing. I am pretty sure that it is coming from my sharpening settings. It is coming from my use of deconvolution (detail fully to the right in LR). I have noticed it, and one of the results of our discussion may be that I use a different default on sharpening.

Hi Erik,

I've mentioned it on other occasions, but the issue with LR is that it seduces its users to mix Capture sharpening with Creative sharpening. That almost always leads to artifacts, or insufficient sharpening.

IMHO, one should do only Capture sharpening with the detail panel. Repurposing the images for different uses/sizes will require to use different output sharpening for each targeted use anyway.
That leaves the Creative sharpening, which currently re-uses the detail panel settings, which is not really useful in most cases.

Quote
Most images are not critically sharp, as critical sharpness only exists in a single plane. When shooting MF I also tended to use smaller apertures which need more sharpening because of diffraction. I expected MF to need less sharpening than my DSLRs, but I found that my settings work well for most images.

Diffraction is another reason to only use the Detail panel for Capture sharpening, so you can focus on the cure, and not introduce other (ringing) issues.

Quote
This image shows more ringing than I like, especially in the reds. The reds are sampled at half the linear resolution of the sensor.

While the Reds may be sampled at a lower sampling density, after good quality demosaicing that difference should be almost gone! A good Raw processor uses the luminance clues for resolution, and applies those to all R/G/B channels. When the image is analyzed with e.g. Imatest, one can see that the R, G, B, and L (= as weighted average) SFR curves are almost identical. I have to assume that LR sharpens after demosaicing, so a single approach for all color channels should suffice.

Quote
I didn't want to invent a special kind of sharpening for this image, as I try to keep as many factors constant as possible. Also, this thread is more about color than acutance.

I understand, but the sharpening defects do interfere with our judgments on overall image quality. But you are right, about color it is in this thread.

Cheers,
Bart
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