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Author Topic: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?  (Read 16034 times)

ecmjazz

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How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« on: August 02, 2013, 06:30:29 am »

Hello,

These days I printed some photos at a lab offering printing on Hahnemuhle papers on Epson 7900 printer. I printed one and the same photo on both Fine Art Baryta and Photo Rag Pearl, but currently I am not able to tell the difference between them - the structure of the paper seems almost identical, the tonality and colors also. The only difference (if any) is that one of them is very slightly more glossy, but so much, that I am not sure whether it is a real. I started wondering whether the guy in the photo lab printed all my photos on one and the same type of paper thus gaining speed. I wanted to do a comparison between those two papers to see which would be better for classic black and white landscapes with as much detail as possible in shadows and highlights, and with fine greys at the same time, so I would gladly accept any Hahnemuhle paper recommendation in that regards as well.

I would also need advice on the following topic: both test B/W prints on Baryta and Pearl have a little reddish tint in the shadows. I was quite surprised by that fact, because I thought my file didn't have any color tint. Well after I saw the print, when I checked closely the file, it went that one of the correction layers had introduced somehow a very slight difference in the histograms of all the three channels - so slight, it can't be noticed on the screen, so I am wondering could it be the one that caused that reddish tint in the shadows? Moreover when I noticed the tint, I opened the file from which the print was made, and inspected those problematic areas with the eyedropper tool - seems that for the most part of it the three color channels have identical values - I was able to see only one single pixel with different values, and actually there the green channel was the highest one..? The more general question here is: to what extent could I expect to get neutral black and white images from Epson 7900 on the Hahnemuhle papers?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2013, 07:11:28 am »

If you got the paper names correct then there are several differences between the two papers. The most obvious one is that the Fine Art Baryta has OBA content. If you walk with the two papers from a tungsten light source indoors to daylight outdoors you should see a big shift to a cooler white in one of the papers where the other one will shift less. Even in halogen light you should see that one has a cooler white paper base on back and front. Then the paper base, the PhotoRag is pure cotton, the Fine Art Alpha Cellulose. Something you will not notice. The paper white itself will show more gloss in the FineArt than in the PhotoRag, that is less visible where black ink is laid down.

Both papers are not really neutral papers, the FineArt Baryta has a Lab b -4, the Photorag Pearl a Lab b 1.9 so a bit warm. The Photorag Pearl is in general closer to neutral and usually the black ink is a bit warm too so combined you should get less deviations in color tone over the total range. If color management is used correctly when printed in color mode or the ABW B&W mode has been adapted for that paper. No OBA content also means less "metamerism" problems and usually less fade issues.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.

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ecmjazz

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2013, 10:15:14 am »

Thank you for the extensive reply!
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OliverS

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2013, 10:18:50 am »

Ernst said everything already,  

FineArt Baryta = Cellulose base, gloss coating, higher white because of OBAs

PhotoRag Pearl = Rag base, semigloss "pearl" coating, normal white no OBAs


Better for B/W Landscapes? Hahnemühle Baryta FB - MediaJet PhotoWhite Baryta is my opinion - but only my ;)

regards and a nice weekend
Oliver
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 07:14:11 am by OliverS »
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hugowolf

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2013, 11:38:25 am »

PhotoRag Pearl = Rag base, semigloss "pearl" coating, normal white lowest OBAs
Actually no OBAs, so the Fine Art Baryta is substantially brighter, which will be plainly noticeable looking at the backs of the two prints. Unless the OP meant Photo Rag Baryta, in which case the two are more difficult to tell apart.

Brian A
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 06:37:38 am »

Hahnemühle FineArt on the subject of OBA´s
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/news/en/239/122/hahnemuehle-fineart-on-the-subject-of-oba-s.html

aaron

A good exposé of the use of OBAs in the HM paper qualities. For what it means in paper white shifts in time I still recommend the Aardenburg-Imaging tests.
In a few cases of Harman by HM papers there is more OBA used in the coating than in the paper base and in most cases OBA is present in both coating and base where HM more or less states it uses OBAs in the paper base only.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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ecmjazz

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2013, 10:37:47 am »

Hello! First I am sorry for the late reply, and thanks for all the useful information!

Unfortunately I am not able to find any difference in the whiteness neither on the front, nor on the back of the paper, and I really meant Fine Art Baryta (not Photo Rag Baryta), and Photo Rag Pearl, so that is strange. I will ask the guy at the print lab to see his explanation - maybe he understood Photo Rag Baryta instead, or just used whatever paper was comfortable to him..
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MHMG

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2013, 12:20:57 pm »

Hello! First I am sorry for the late reply, and thanks for all the useful information!

Unfortunately I am not able to find any difference in the whiteness neither on the front, nor on the back of the paper, and I really meant Fine Art Baryta (not Photo Rag Baryta), and Photo Rag Pearl, so that is strange. I will ask the guy at the print lab to see his explanation - maybe he understood Photo Rag Baryta instead, or just used whatever paper was comfortable to him..

Unless you are in that 8% or so of the population with some level of colorblindness, the FineArt Pearl is indeed distinctly more bright blue-white than the PhotoRag Pearl, but Photorag Pearl and PhotoRag Baryta are for all practical purposes the same on color of the media since both contain no OBAs in either coating or base. Base stiffness between HN "fineArt" designated papers and HN "Rag" designated papers is also noticeably different, since HN uses the fineart designator for alphacellulose (wood pulp source) base sheet papers and the Rag designator for cotton base sheet papers.

But HN names can get a bit confusing, so my guess is your print provider confused fineart baryta with photo rag baryta and gave you the photo rag baryta. That said, Photo Rag Pearl and PhotoRagBaryta do have noticeably different gloss and texture in their coatings. The Pearl is somewhat lower gloss and more uniform in texture while the PhotoRag Baryta is higher gloss/luster, has a slightly sweet odor of Barium Sulfate and a more anisotropic texture (i.e, more noticeable orientation of grain in the left-to-right versus top-to-bottom orientation of surface pattern when looking at the surface under lighting angles that help to distinguish some of these surface texture features. A bit hard to describe verbally... best way to understand differences are to obtain known samples of each paper. Then the texture and gloss differences will be obvious. 

I'll bet your print provider will resolve the issue quickly :)

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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ecmjazz

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2013, 04:53:16 am »

Thanks once again for the extensive reply! Well, I think I am not among those 8% with color-blindness, and I could distinguish easily nuances of white - at least I can easily distinguish the color of the paper of all the prints I made from the color of another sheet of paper for a laser printer, where the color is noticeably blue-whiter than my HM prints, where the paper is much warm-yellowish. To be sure I begged my wife to take a look, and she can't tell the difference between the different prints as well - the only thing she thinks she sees is a slight difference in the gloss, but I don't see those differences. I can not see any differences in texture as well, and unfortunately I forgot to sense the smell of the papers, but will do it later today. I called also the print lab, and the person there told me that there is difference between Fine Art Baryta and Photo Rag Pearl in terms of whiteness, but his opinion is that it is barely noticeable, which contradicts all the posts above, and seems strange to me. I hope he is not trying to cover the fact that he maybe gave me Photo Rag Baryta, instead of Fine Art Baryta, and even worse - Photo Rag Pearl for all of the prints. Anyway, I will go tomorrow with my prints in the lab to see whether he will be able to tell the "Fine Art" Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl, and to look at known samples for comparison.

Finally, OliverS recommended above Hahnemühle Baryta FB as one of the best for B/W landscapes, but this review is not very optimistic about it?:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml
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Czornyj

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2013, 06:22:45 am »

Baryta FB is stuffed with huge amount of OBA, and small (if any) amount of baryta, which makes it pink, and (most likely) not as archival as other baryta papers from Hahnemuehle.

On the other hand - it's inexpansive, very bright, beefy cardboard with a nice fibre relief. As long as you can live with pink tint and the fact, that it probably won't last for hundreds of years, you actually may like it.
I'm using it successfully to print artsy cards:
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 06:27:40 am by Czornyj »
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OliverS

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2013, 07:18:14 am »

Finally, OliverS recommended above Hahnemühle Baryta FB as one of the best for B/W landscapes, but this review is not very optimistic about it?:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/tale.shtml

Not one of the best, but one alternative.
And the luminos-landscape story, you have to like it or you hate it. Canon - Nikon ? Mac - Win ? Europe - US?
Here in Europe it´s a cheaper quality and the users like it because of the highwhite and gloss coating.
In the US it´s maybe another story. To pink? Never notice that - or: never looked at the papier from this point of view ;)

Oliver
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MHMG

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2013, 08:48:54 am »

I called also the print lab, and the person there told me that there is difference between Fine Art Baryta and Photo Rag Pearl in terms of whiteness, but his opinion is that it is barely noticeable, which contradicts all the posts above, and seems strange to me. I hope he is not trying to cover the fact that he maybe gave me Photo Rag Baryta, instead of Fine Art Baryta, and even worse - Photo Rag Pearl for all of the prints. Anyway, I will go tomorrow with my prints in the lab to see whether he will be able to tell the "Fine Art" Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl, and to look at known samples for comparison.


Again, FineArt Pearl and FineArt Baryta are alphacellulose base sheet, with medium/high levels of OBAs in the top coat, whereas PhotoRag Pearl and PHotoRag Baryta are cotton base and no OBAs. If your lab technician can't noticeably appreciate much of a visual difference between inkjet media that contains moderate to high levels of OBAs versus those that contain no OBAs, he or she does not have much experience in digital fine art printing. The differences are easily noticeable, and if you really want to prove the point, bring a portable black light with you (can be obtained at many hardware stores). Black light will sort the fineart Pearl and fineart baryta group from the photo rag pearl and photo rag baryta group of papers with absolutely no room for debate :)  An example of what you will see under blacklight can be found in this article:

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.18.html

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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deanwork

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2013, 10:28:02 am »

I used to use the Photorag Baryta for years but like many other people saw a lot of quality control issues in that we kept seeing these dark spots in the emulsion due to something in the manufacturing process. So I switched to Photorag Pearl and have no problems with that. Photorag Baryta can really cost you money when you do large prints and find you have to toss them because of one or two specs in obvious areas of the print.

They have a very slightly different texture but other than that I find them pretty much identical. I also use the Fine Art Baryta when people want more intensity for color but my favorite paper of all of these now is the Photorag Pearl. These rag papers also curl less than the alpha fiber gloss rolls that were continually scratching in the printer and in handling for me. That is why I gave up on the Harmon for large prints.

john
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ecmjazz

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2013, 11:40:05 am »

I almost start to feel happy that this confusion of the papers happened, because now I learned so much things about the papers! :) After reading all the posts in this thread, and the last link from MHMG, I definitely think I should avoid high OBA papers for both archival and framing/viewing reasons, so maybe I will stay away from the Fine Art Baryta anyway, although I will still go to the lab to understand which exactly is the paper they printed my photos on the last time. I like Photo Rag Pearl from another time I printed, so maybe it will be one of my preferred papers for all situations, as it is for deanwork as well.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 11:49:55 am by ecmjazz »
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MHMG

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2013, 12:32:42 pm »

The term "fiber base" refers to papers produced from either alphacellulose sources (e.g., wood pulp) or cotton fiber source materials. When properly manufactured to be acid neutralized and ligin-free, the final cellulosic content in the paper base sheet is chemically quite similar if not identical, so it's unclear that cotton sourced papers will necessarily outlast papers derived from other cellulosic fiber sources. History has already proven both types of base sheet can have excellent durability over time.  The key distinction in photographic, inkjet, and other paper-based media then becomes what sizings or coatings also get used to produce the final product. For example, in the late 1960s, photographic manufacturers began to introduce polyethylene coatings  coated on both sides of the base fiber sheet upon which additional silver halide sensitized photographic gelatin coatings were then applied to enable rapid processing and drying. These papers are referred to generically as RC (resin coated) papers and distinguished from "traditional fiber base" photographic papers that had been around for well over a century. Note the photographic industry rarely if ever used cotton as the base sheet, so most photographs that are not on RC papers are in fact produced from highly purified wood pulp not cotton fiber source. Because the modern RC coated base sheet materials are widely available and consumers got used to the more modern "look and feel" of RC papers, inkjet coating formulations were then logically adapted to these RC base media as well, and hence we have all the classical distinctions between RC and Fiber base even in this modern inkjet age with the additional option for cotton fiber as well as wood pulp fiber. Again, either source of cellulosic component can produce a highly refined and chemically stable base sheet. It's the subsequent coatings and inks on top that tend to limit the longevity. That said, cotton papers do tend to have slightly different mechanical properties, usually being softer and more supple in hand than other slightly stiffer alphacellulose derived papers. Hence, many artists prefer the full cotton "rag" papers for feel-in-hand properties plus they have been influenced by the industry promoted association of cotton paper being only of highest quality whereas "wood pulp" papers can vary all over the map in quality (from bad to as good as cotton depending on how the material is refined during manufacture).

Note: my comment above was prompted by a prior question/remark in this thread, but that remark has since been edited out. I could therefore sensibly remove this reply, but I think it may be of some general value to this post, so I will let it stand.

cheers,
Mark
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 12:43:29 pm by MHMG »
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ecmjazz

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2013, 01:49:52 pm »

I removed my last question from the previous post, since I've already found the information needed, and wanted to save some time for all repliers. Anyway your reply is again extensive and helpful, and confirms and further updates what I just have read in the net, moreover it could be helpful to anyone else as well or as a future reference. Thank you once again! To repeat myself: I think I gained very important knowledge in this thread. Thanks to all who replied!
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Justan

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2013, 03:51:46 pm »

FWIW Hanamuhele sells sample packs that can show you what you should be getting.

The Hahnemuhle paper Sample Pack # 10640777B contains

Two 8.5x11' sheets each of: FineArt Pearl - Photo Rag Baryta - Photo Rag Satin - Photo Rag Pearl - FineArt Baryta - Baryta FB - Daguerre Canvas and Monet Canvas.
https://www.google.com/shopping/product/14169408750722813667?q=hahnemuhle+paper+sample+pack&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&biw=1318&bih=601&sa=X&ei=HKQCUuGWGuWViQLs8YCIBA&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAQ

They make other sample packs and this provides a low cost way to see the base papers and even print on it if you have a capable printer.

I bought one of the packs and used it to help decide which of their papers I wanted to use. It was a worthy spend of $20 imo.

hugowolf

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2013, 09:01:14 pm »

Baryta FB is stuffed with huge amount of OBA, ...

Why bring up Baryta FB? No one has mentioned it so far and the issue is confussing enough without it.

Brian A
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Czornyj

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Re: How to tell Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta from Photo Rag Pearl?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 02:24:23 am »

Why bring up Baryta FB? No one has mentioned it so far and the issue is confussing enough without it.

Brian A

OlivierS mentioned it, and ecmjazz asked about it.
At first it may be confusing to distinguish FineArt Baryta/Pearl from PhotoRag Baryta/Pearl - but not in case of Baryta FB, it stands out from the rest of Hahnemuehle Baryta/Pearl papers.
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