Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]   Go Down

Author Topic: The Chinese are coming  (Read 23431 times)

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14483
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #100 on: August 02, 2013, 06:20:31 AM »

These things are of course comparative.

Try using a Hasselblad H series at well over 2000 grams and then switching to the Leica at 589 grams. Even Rob's D700 is getting on for twice the weight of the Leica.Add a Thumbs Up http://www.matchtechnical.com/Pages/ThumbsUpEP1.aspx and the handling is a joy.


That I did not know.

Unfortunately, it isn't also half the price of a D700! Little details like that matter...

By the way, it later occurred to me that my recent post about love affairs with cameras could have been taken as bite at yours; that was not my intention - I have already long wished you the very best with it, and am aware you are hardly an impulse buyer.

My grief with the big Pentax was vibration of both mirror and, worse and unavoidable, shutter. Had it had the 500 Series lens system format, it would have been pretty damned faultless other than the tightness of the loading/unloading clips that scared me every time I wanted to remove a film. It was beautifully made - a work of engineering art. And I found the metered version of the prism finder perfect. Having shutters just on two lenses, neither being ones I'd bought, wasn't much use to me. Woeful flash synch. was a direct result of large focal plane shutter systems. I'd hoped to be able to circumvent the disadvantage, but it didn't work. The weight didn't bother me - it was bought, basically, as a tripod camera, another fruitless move to get larger trannies for stock. Just before digital swept it all aside.

;-)

Rob C

peterv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 147
    • facebook
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2013, 07:36:45 AM »

bcooter,

if you like the M8 files, you should really take a serious look at the Leica S. Maybe not in just any Leica store, but ask Leica USA for a demo and play with the system for a few days. I've had the M8 and now the S2 and the files have the same look/quality, just bigger.
Logged

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1298
  • guest
    • working
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2013, 01:32:58 PM »

bcooter,

if you like the M8 files, you should really take a serious look at the Leica S. Maybe not in just any Leica store, but ask Leica USA for a demo and play with the system for a few days. I've had the M8 and now the S2 and the files have the same look/quality, just bigger.

If a single purpose camera would work for me I'd go that way.  If the S had a real oem dedicated tethering suite as robust as C-1 I'd also give it more thought, but my world has changed.

Yes I like the ccd m8 files, probably would like the m9 files (obviously some people do because those cameras are sold out everywhere), and I'm sure I'd love an S series.

The thing is we shoot so differently today.  I'd love the time to set strobes for 2 hours, shoot 1 frame every few seconds (at most) and never here the word video, motion, A roll, B roll, C roll, a cam, b cam, c cam again, but honestly my world isn't like that anymore.

Even for a "dedicated" still shoot that requires "some" video, we'll spend a week on still post production, a month on motion and everybody forgets about the stills, and asks about the video.

I got out of a creative meeting yesterday in NY and the gig was a "still" shoot and was told video wasn't that important.  By the end of the meeting we talked about the video for 1 hour, 20 minutes about the stills because everything shot will go on into in store lcds and on large time square panels and well, lcds move.

To me 7 years ago I'd jump at an S2 or S.   Those were the days where I was a still photographer, not a content provider, but times have changed, client briefs are different and money has to be allocated towards what is expected.

$40,000 for a still camera only is a big outlay, considering the camera is beautiful.

____________________________

Rob,

If you hand held the 6x7 Pentax you did it wrong.  Everybody I've known that used them (some still do) either used strobe with very little ambient light, or shot with 2.5 k hmi's and a full lighting crew and nearly everyone had them on a tripod.

They were great for that, but low light, anything close to 125th of a second produced mirror slap and with long lenses, even higher shutter speed. 

With Polaroid you needed a second body, if you shot fast you needed 4 bodies because loading them took the dexterity of a brain surgeon and considering film cameras (not digital) they weren't cheap and Pentax also had a bad habit of saturating the market with product then disappearing for two years.

I bought one body two lenses once and sold it, because it just was too much work and for 6x7 the real winner was the Mamiya RZ.  That was a huge camera, but for heavy Ad work, (back in the days when a few setups a day were fine), was the camera of choice.

In fact if someone made a new autofocus RZ that fit a cost effective digital back, had a rotating back that registered in the viewfinder, had faster lenses and didn't cost more than an S class Merc, they'd probably sell them like crazy.

Maybe not, because for the Milly generation the pro camera of choice is a 5d3 or a d800.  That group is positive they're in pro territory because it's bigger than their other camera of choice, an I phone.

IMO

BC


eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5722
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2013, 04:41:15 PM »

The M is like a woman - perfect for 5 minutes a month, and unpredictable the rest of the time. We love them for those five minutes, and the rest of the time we leave them at home :)

Edmund

Its just batty.  The straw that broke the camel's back was a horrific blooming that manifested as jagged edges poking out of blown highlights, like when shooting a high key backlit portrait where you blow a white background with strobes.  These jagged edges would intrude into the subject, and this isn't pixel peeping, this is at 25% and in a letter sized print.  The M8 did this with window light too, this wasn't an extreme, non-approved use of a digital camera.  Leica NJ told me it wasn't a problem after looking at the raws.  I kept sending them.  They kept deneying there was any issue.  It was like a Rumsfeld press conference, a complete denial of reality.  I later found that the PCB board was bad.  I sold it, after disclosing the issue, for $800.  I wanted to rid myself of the camera and Leica.  I tghen sold my M9 and my Zeiss ZM lenses.  But I missed the M9.  So bought another one and its relatively well behaved, just so long as I don't review images when its writing to the card.  Or use it with less than 50% charge, which is down from 70% after some experimentation with shutter modes, card writing, iso's etc.  And when I sent my M9 to have the RF adjusted, they turned it around in 2 days and wer every nice about everything.  

It is love with the M.

Logged

Manoli

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1240
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2013, 04:56:24 PM »

The M is like a woman - perfect for 5 minutes a month, and unpredictable the rest of the time. We love them for those five minutes, and the rest of the time we leave them at home :)

Edmund

Tut, tut Edmund - what a sexist remark. I suggest you remove it before Germaine Greer reads it; she'll have your b**s for garters

[smiley]
Logged

Rob C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14483
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #105 on: August 03, 2013, 04:20:03 AM »

Sounds like Swiss Toni.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBw-aEixWuo


Amazing! Must buy some Belgian chocs.

;-)

Rob C

peterv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 147
    • facebook
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #106 on: August 03, 2013, 05:02:52 AM »

If a single purpose camera would work for me I'd go that way.  If the S had a real oem dedicated tethering suite as robust as C-1 I'd also give it more thought, but my world has changed.

Yes I like the ccd m8 files, probably would like the m9 files (obviously some people do because those cameras are sold out everywhere), and I'm sure I'd love an S series.

The thing is we shoot so differently today.  I'd love the time to set strobes for 2 hours, shoot 1 frame every few seconds (at most) and never here the word video, motion, A roll, B roll, C roll, a cam, b cam, c cam again, but honestly my world isn't like that anymore.

Even for a "dedicated" still shoot that requires "some" video, we'll spend a week on still post production, a month on motion and everybody forgets about the stills, and asks about the video.

I got out of a creative meeting yesterday in NY and the gig was a "still" shoot and was told video wasn't that important.  By the end of the meeting we talked about the video for 1 hour, 20 minutes about the stills because everything shot will go on into in store lcds and on large time square panels and well, lcds move.

To me 7 years ago I'd jump at an S2 or S.   Those were the days where I was a still photographer, not a content provider, but times have changed, client briefs are different and money has to be allocated towards what is expected.

$40,000 for a still camera only is a big outlay, considering the camera is beautiful.

IMO

BC


I understand what you're saying. Times have changed very fast these past few years, budgets are tight and video has become so important. BTW, there now is a Contax to Leica S adapter. You'd still be able to use your beloved lenses. Maybe in a year or two when the S might go CMOS, there'll be a video option, though probably with focus difficulties, having such a large sensor. But by then the system might loose the CCD- look ...

All the best,

Peter
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 05:04:41 AM by peterv »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 10044
    • Echophoto
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #107 on: August 03, 2013, 09:20:31 AM »

Hi,

Just a small reflection...

The Leica M8 and the M9 use essentially the same sensor design. There are several aspects, the sensor on it's own is a monochrome device. Color is provided by the CGA (Color Grid Array) in front of it and some math describing the CGA. Implementation of IR-cut filter and UV-filter may also matter.

Some of the differences depend on the filter implementation, and this may relate to the vendor of the sensor and their preferences. I guess that Kodak sensors may be a bit different from Dalsa sensors in their CGA design.

One thing that CCD vs. CMOS can affect is that CMOS can have some noise reduction that CCD cannot have. All CMOS sensors, AFIK, have correlated double sampling. That is, they compare sensor voltages before and after exposure, eliminating some of the noise. Many CMOS sensors of modern design have massively parallel on chip converters, that is a technique that may reduce noise.

My point is that CCD vs. CMOS does not affect color rendition, but there may be a difference between vendors. Leica DMR, M8, M9, Hasselblad backs, Pentax 645D and older Phase One all use Kodak sensors, and some of the advantages perceived with those backs may come from Kodak's CGA design. Later Phase One sensors use Dalsa designs and they may offer different color rendition. That difference is not due to CCD/CMOS but to different CGA designs.

Best regards
Erik





I understand what you're saying. Times have changed very fast these past few years, budgets are tight and video has become so important. BTW, there now is a Contax to Leica S adapter. You'd still be able to use your beloved lenses. Maybe in a year or two when the S might go CMOS, there'll be a video option, though probably with focus difficulties, having such a large sensor. But by then the system might loose the CCD- look ...

All the best,

Peter

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5722
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #108 on: August 03, 2013, 09:03:06 PM »

Erik,

 One difference between M8 and M9 seems to be a hugely IR absorbing cover glass stuck over the sensor. As such has a progressive cut off, the color rendering ...

 As for CCD vs CMOS, I think CMOS are engineered with a shoulder these days thanks to the antiblooming circuitry, which might account for the difference in looks - the shoulder needs tuning.

Edmund

Hi,

Just a small reflection...

The Leica M8 and the M9 use essentially the same sensor design. There are several aspects, the sensor on it's own is a monochrome device. Color is provided by the CGA (Color Grid Array) in front of it and some math describing the CGA. Implementation of IR-cut filter and UV-filter may also matter.

Some of the differences depend on the filter implementation, and this may relate to the vendor of the sensor and their preferences. I guess that Kodak sensors may be a bit different from Dalsa sensors in their CGA design.

One thing that CCD vs. CMOS can affect is that CMOS can have some noise reduction that CCD cannot have. All CMOS sensors, AFIK, have correlated double sampling. That is, they compare sensor voltages before and after exposure, eliminating some of the noise. Many CMOS sensors of modern design have massively parallel on chip converters, that is a technique that may reduce noise.

My point is that CCD vs. CMOS does not affect color rendition, but there may be a difference between vendors. Leica DMR, M8, M9, Hasselblad backs, Pentax 645D and older Phase One all use Kodak sensors, and some of the advantages perceived with those backs may come from Kodak's CGA design. Later Phase One sensors use Dalsa designs and they may offer different color rendition. That difference is not due to CCD/CMOS but to different CGA designs.

Best regards
Erik





Logged

TMARK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1841
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #109 on: August 04, 2013, 08:34:25 PM »


While you don't need IR block filters you can still get the IR problem with the M9, so I don't think the M9's IR filter is "hugely IR absorbing". I like the M9 colors very much, but C1v6's profile was not great. LR was much better. C17 is pretty good.

Erik,

 One difference between M8 and M9 seems to be a hugely IR absorbing cover glass stuck over the sensor. As such has a progressive cut off, the color rendering ...

 As for CCD vs CMOS, I think CMOS are engineered with a shoulder these days thanks to the antiblooming circuitry, which might account for the difference in looks - the shoulder needs tuning.

Edmund

Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5722
Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2013, 04:06:58 PM »

While you don't need IR block filters you can still get the IR problem with the M9, so I don't think the M9's IR filter is "hugely IR absorbing". I like the M9 colors very much, but C1v6's profile was not great. LR was much better. C17 is pretty good.


If you want to spend the time, I can profile your camera, but you will need to make and send me a very specific test shot.

Edmund
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6]   Go Up