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Author Topic: The Chinese are coming  (Read 30147 times)

Rob C

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2013, 10:34:16 am »

Rob, play your cards right and they might club together to buy their grandfather a little something!


It's a risky waiting game: by the time they get proper, paying jobs I might be in Heaven. Better hope my wife has managd to discover something nice for me for when I turn up to say Hi, it's me!

;-)

Rob C


P.S. I better change that to "Hi, it is I!" She'd never forgive me for screwing up at that basic level.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:31:00 am by Rob C »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2013, 10:40:32 am »

Hi,

My guess is that:

1) The R series did not generate enough income to support development and manufacture
2) Leica didn't want to go into autofocus and they felt that AF was needed to keep R-series viable

The Leica M is somewhat of a legend and it is selling a lot on the basis of being a legend. Selling SLRs may be a different business.

Best regards
Erik


James, thanks to share your experience
On the OM digital.
Highly apreciated.

TMark (gosh, i can't help to think
Of Mark Tucker with this pseudo)
The Fm2 shutter is bullet proof
But frankly very harsh and i'm with
Rob on that, it sounds cheap (but
Isn't). A part from that, i loved the fm2.

Everybody talks about the M, but I'm
Very surprised to hear very little regrets
On the R.
The digital back of the R delivered
Incredible imagery, that could still smoke
A lot of today's new equipment.
I would have loved Leica doing a real R digital
Instead of this S that looks like a dead-end road.


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bcooter

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2013, 03:24:25 pm »

Hi,

My guess is that:

1) The R series did not generate enough income to support development and manufacture
2) Leica didn't want to go into autofocus and they felt that AF was needed to keep R-series viable

The Leica M is somewhat of a legend and it is selling a lot on the basis of being a legend. Selling SLRs may be a different business.

Best regards
Erik




When I started my biz, my first few years were in Dallas,.

A famous fashion, beauty and celeb photographer from NY, (names held back to protect the innocent) rented our studio to shoot some celebs.

I was very young, and impressionable, never seen a photographer of this caliber work.   

His assistants flew in ahead of him and pre lit the set.

There was this black Halliburton case that was always next to them, almost like it was being guarded.

The photographer  came in the day of the shoot in a limo.  That was back before the days that everyone took a limo.

He walked in, Dolly Parton was the subject, he quickly introduced himself and his assistants opened that black case which was full of Leica Rs.  I don't know which ones, but it looked like that case in Pulp Fiction, when they opened it up it seemed to glow.

When they shot the first roll, the shutter button popped out.  His assistants put another body on the tripod and it went down also.

The photographer look a little panicked and asked if he could borrow a camera.  I brought over "my" beat up Halliburton, opened it up(it didn't glow). which was full of beat up Nikon FM's and Nikor lenses with the black wearing off.   It looked nothing like his beautiful case and I'll admit I was a little embarrassed.

It was like pulling up to the valet at the Mondrian in a worn out Kia with a missing front fender.

Anyway, he used my FM's, got the shot and left 15 minutes later.  (back in the days where one shot a day was considered normal).

After that I lusted for Leica R's and when I finally could afford them I'd go to buy and add up the cost of cameras and lenses, call rental houses in every market I worked and of course few if anyone rented them (outside of NY).

Then I just dropped the thought.

When leica came out with their digital module back, I was ready. 




I ran over to Eli Kurland to see one, shot a few frames and realized with the crop, the fact it used old Imacon software it just wasn't that usable for me.

The files were beautiful and like most ccd's really were deep, but the crop factor in that somewhat small viewfinder just unraveled the deal.

Flash forward to today. 

The S-2 is nice but nothing like the Rs.  Why Leica didn't go to autofocus on the R's  is beyond me, but I can understand why they didn't go the 35mm route for their dslr.

After all people's brains are caught up in buying megapixels, pros and amateurs.  And cost is also a factor.   The professional still camera of choice today seems to be a D800 or a 5d3.

I think those camera both work well, but look average, nothing special, surely not the pulp fiction glow, but that's the way it is today.

The S2 I would love to own one, but for real work,  It's kind of old think, doesn't have it's own dedicated tethering suite, doesn't shoot any form of video, the lenses are really expensive.  Beautiful single purpose camera.

I think now Leica lives off it's name and has that old world craftsman view  of if we build something beautiful enough people will come, which I guess works, but most makers of anything first study a market and then build what the market wants or will at least will buy now.

I like the old think way, but need the new think way.

Imagine if Leica built the S2 that had all the functionality of the Panasonic GH3, great video, wi-fi tethering to ipads, internal i.s., different aspect ratios.   Then I could justify it.

Actually funny thing is R lenses (not bodies) have dropped in price but are somewhat in demand for digital video cameras.  Some people change mounts to PL or Nikon and they work well.  They're not crunchy sharp but have beautiful fall off.

The only issue with R lenses is they are not the fastest, 2.8 usually the max and in the film world 1.2, 1.4 is fast 2.0 is kind of slow.

Still I would love a digital R, the prices are good now, the lenses semi cheap and I think you can buy the digital modules for 2 grand, but why?

Maybe for that pul[p fiction glow.
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TMARK

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2013, 12:43:54 am »

Cooter, when I see an R8 or R9 I get all gooey. I think hey are the most beautiful cameras ever built. I am constantly about to buy one from KEH. A guy I know uses an R8 for editorial alongside a Hasselblad V. They feel nice too. What holds me back, and held me back from buying back then, was the fact that an F5 or F4 or F3 were better cameras in almost every way, and besides, I was shooting everything on 645 and larger film. If I bought one to use with film it would be a curiosity. The DMR doesn't do it for me like an M9, although what I've seen is better than an M8, which means pretty nice. You are right about h viewfinder as well, not up to its Pro Nikon and Canon contemporaries.

And the S. Well, my issue is price for a single purpose camera. In many ways it is the best camera made, besides the Hy6/AFI. If an S and three lenses were only twice as much as a D800/5d3/1dx with 3 top lenses, I'd bite.  But an S and three lenses (wide, normal and short telephoto) is what, $40k?  That is a bit high for my Scottish lineage to accept.
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EricWHiss

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2013, 02:50:58 am »

TMARK,
That's funny you write about the same two cameras ...  R+DMR and Rollei 6008...   I had the DMR and really loved it for its simplicity and nice files (with daylight or strobes), but had a moment of weakness when it was off in service and picked up a used 6008AF and a P20 back and pretty much never looked back.  Now you could say I drank the Rollei cool-aid so I'm totally biased  ;)  ...  but as much as I loved the Leica R8 and the lenses, the Schneider glass for the Rollei seemed even better.  Everything on the Rollei seemed better, viewfinder, ergonomics, flash sync, leaf shutters, etc.   That said, I still keep a few R lenses in my closet hoping they would come out with a good successor.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2013, 05:18:57 am »

That said, I still keep a few R lenses in my closet hoping they would come out with a good successor.

Eric,

I assume that you know about these guys? http://leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I am using their mount replacements on Leica R 180mm f2.8 and 280mm f4 with my D800, they work well.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2013, 09:45:26 am »

You guys are nostalgic for the old look, and you may be saying something valuable. The current crop of cameras have been pushed too far, they are overbred. The high ISO and big pixel count have in some way been bought at the expense of looking a bit soft and creating files that "break", while quite a few of the oldies made files that had teeth and glowed. I think in animal husbandry this effect is called overbreeding.

The other day some old cooter here was saying he might have just stayed with his old 1Ds; well I wonder whether nowadays he might not just get some random camera eg. 6D and get it and stay with it - my reasoning is that in still photography, if the cameras haven't got better over 10 years, they won't really get better quickly enough to matter . In video of course we're at the beginning of a new age, and things are changing by the day.

Edmund
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:52:51 am by eronald »
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TMARK

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2013, 09:52:16 am »

You guys are nostalgic for the old look, and you may be saying something valuable. The current crop of cameras have been pushed too far, they are overbred. The high ISO and big pixel count have in some way been bought at the expense of looking a bit soft and creating files that "break", while quite a few of the oldies made files that had teeth and glowed. I think in animal husbandry this effect is called overbreeding.

Edmund

The D800 has an amazing file that out weighs the fact that it has all the allure and romance of the Hitachi drill I bought over the weekend.  I would have no problem with the D800 as an appliance if it had a big finder.  But it doesn't.
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eronald

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2013, 09:57:35 am »

The D800 has an amazing file that out weighs the fact that it has all the allure and romance of the Hitachi drill I bought over the weekend.  I would have no problem with the D800 as an appliance if it had a big finder.  But it doesn't.

I don't know about the D800, but I'll believe you. I have a D4 and it does all those wonderful pro camera things and follows and focuses on my 2 year old all around the house in available light- strange how only pro cameras can do the things which every amateur needs most - but the images look *weird* with his mom's face turning magenta when it's right next to the kid's face in the picture*. The High ISO has been bought at the price of some color fidelity. Overbreeding.

Edmund

*yes, I do know about camera profiling.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:00:40 am by eronald »
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TMARK

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2013, 10:01:39 am »

TMARK,
That's funny you write about the same two cameras ...  R+DMR and Rollei 6008...   I had the DMR and really loved it for its simplicity and nice files (with daylight or strobes), but had a moment of weakness when it was off in service and picked up a used 6008AF and a P20 back and pretty much never looked back.  Now you could say I drank the Rollei cool-aid so I'm totally biased  ;)  ...  but as much as I loved the Leica R8 and the lenses, the Schneider glass for the Rollei seemed even better.  Everything on the Rollei seemed better, viewfinder, ergonomics, flash sync, leaf shutters, etc.   That said, I still keep a few R lenses in my closet hoping they would come out with a good successor.

I STILL havn't bought a 6008/AFI.  I'm sticking with the D800e and RZ/film for studio and portraits and the Leica M and Hasselblad V for editorial.  I'm doing little photo work these days, and when I do its for love not money, which means I can't justify a large outlay when I'm fine with what I have.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:22:16 am by TMARK »
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EricWHiss

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2013, 11:47:49 am »

Eric,

I assume that you know about these guys? http://leitax.com/leica-lens-for-nikon-cameras.html

I am using their mount replacements on Leica R 180mm f2.8 and 280mm f4 with my D800, they work well.

Cheers,
Bernard


Yes, you are correct, and if you look his website, the pictures of the adapter fitment for the fabled f/2.8 35-70mm elmarit are mine.   Now that was a R lens!
I do use my R lenses on my DSLR once in a while, the 80/1.4 summilux mostly, but I just as often use the olympus OM 55/1.2.   But in all honestly, I loan out my DSLR to friends more than I use it.
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bcooter

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2013, 12:17:52 pm »

I don't know about the D800, but I'll believe you. I have a D4 and it does all those wonderful pro camera things and follows and focuses on my 2 year old all around the house in available light- strange how only pro cameras can do the things which every amateur needs most - but the images look *weird* with his mom's face turning magenta when it's right next to the kid's face in the picture*. The High ISO has been bought at the price of some color fidelity. Overbreeding.

Edmund

*yes, I do know about camera profiling.

I don't like looking at images at 100% on the computer.  I don't view that way on the finished image on the web, or in print, so being able to see micro, micro, micro detail from two blocks away doesn't really move me. (I know for many it does).

I just look at the overall image and in commerce can I shoot it profitably and meet the creative brief.  Personal/editorial and commercial work are way different animals, (they shouldn't be but they are) and since th economic downturn, we produce three times the imagery for each shoot day than we did before.

Now I'm not nostalgic.  I have the cameras, computers, lack of sleep to prove it.  I just don't like anything that's not pretty, in what the cameras look like and what they can produce.

I loved the use of the Nikon D3, D4 D700, but had a lot of issues with the colour.  I see some of the same with the Canon 1dx and 5d3, which are my least favorite Canons made.

They just seem way too ambient color receptive (if that is a term) and sometimes too global in colour.  I've mentioned this before but I have one image we shot of four different ethinic women on a beach in soft light and you can put a dropper on the skin tones and they all look within 10% of the same.  

Direct light seems to cure some of cmos digital's ills, but it takes a lot of light crafting to do this and unfortunately in today's time frame on set, you just don't have the time it takes to craft one image every 4 hours.

I don't know where places like DXO get there numbers, but there is no place on their charts for pretty and of course what looks good or doesn't is very user specific.

I also don't hold out any hopes for a modern R-9, (I would bet that Leica assumes the S series is the modern R-9) and if I only shot stills, at a slower pace I'd give the S a serious look.

(Actually not true.   If I could shoot at a slower pace, I just use my p21+ and the contax.  To me that is the perfect camera and digital for stills and tethers like a rock.

I know I'll get blowback from this statement but I don't think any camera really goes to 800 asa (iso) without something suffering.  Whether it becomes more global in colour or loses sharpness to kill noise, there is something going on behind the curtain that changes things.

When I bought my p30+ and p21+ they wouldn't cleanly go beyond 400 and it was noticeable even at a distance.  Now they go one stop better due to c-1's processing. (once again behind the curtain).

Maybe the reason I like the 4:3 cameras, gh3 and OMD.  The files are small, and kind of look like film did which means I think they don't see everything and like film is kind of stupid.   I know that to me I shoot them more like film, watching the highlights, crafting a little more fill and they don't look as flat and need so much post work to get them to where I want.

But it's not that I like the 4:3 cameras that much, the gh3 is like a small nikon or canon in that it's kind of ugly and does a lot of electronic stuff, (though shoots damn pretty in motion and stills).

The gh3 does something with continuous lighting that is insane.  What you see in the viewfinder is virtually identical to what you'll see on the screen as in manual mode the evf reflects the exposure and tone of the final image.  That is way good.

The OMD works differently in that the viewfinder thinks it's optical and no matter what you change, the viewfinder stays the same.  It is just a pretty camera and we use it for some motion work if the subject is moving and we need to track with them like a stedicam, because the image stabliziton is crazy good, but it doesn't work as well as the gh3's.

My Leica M8 I use and use.   It's not that I'm in love with rangefinders, (I'm not), or the feel of the leica (well sort of), but I love the look of the file.  It makes no sense how well that camera works with profoto strobe and it also makes no sense that leica never thought about how to tether it.

Anyway .....................

In a way, none of this matters if you have time to really do a lot of post production on an image.  If you have the budget and time post production will fix almost any ills if the subject/photo is compelling.

That really shouldn't be the plan, but it is.

It's funny, the once cmos camera that I think produces beautiful color is the Red Ones.  They look like my ccd based cameras, but you have to set them up close to final to get that look.

I guess we should always do that.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:23:28 pm by bcooter »
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bcooter

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2013, 12:21:01 pm »

Yes, you are correct, and if you look his website, the pictures of the adapter fitment for the fabled f/2.8 35-70mm elmarit are mine.   Now that was a R lens!
I do use my R lenses on my DSLR once in a while, the 80/1.4 summilux mostly, but I just as often use the olympus OM 55/1.2.   But in all honestly, I loan out my DSLR to friends more than I use it.


When I bought the 4:3 cameras I couldn't wait t use my leica lenses.  For one they look way cool on a gh3, or OMD and when you manually focus the lenses they electronically zoom in so for once I could use the leica 90 and focus it.

I was surprised that the leicas had ca, blue fringing, and not that sharp in comparison to the olympus lenses and the smoothness of the pana lenses.

Still I use them for kicks, they look way good on that plastic gh3, and have great colour.

Fringing is easy to take out.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 12:27:08 pm by bcooter »
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fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2013, 01:14:02 pm »

When I bought the 4:3 cameras I couldn't wait t use my leica lenses.  For one they look way cool on a gh3, or OMD and when you manually focus the lenses they electronically zoom in so for once I could use the leica 90 and focus it.

I was surprised that the leicas had ...

Absolutly. That is something that has been noticed over and over again on the m4/3. M lenses aren't stellar at all on those cameras. I ignore the reason why but it's a prooven fact.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2013, 01:21:58 pm »

Hi,

Half the sensor size...

A smaller sensor allows for better correction of the lens and makes higher demands on the optical designs. Olympus and Panasonic design lenses with less aberrations and higher MTF.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Pana and Oly lenses will measure better, which will give better image may depend on what you are looking for.

Best regards
Erik

Absolutly. That is something that has been noticed over and over again on the m4/3. M lenses aren't stellar at all on those cameras. I ignore the reason why but it's a prooven fact.
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EricWHiss

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2013, 02:22:56 pm »

A lot of the older lenses designed for film will get the blue/green fringing since the color emulsions had different depths but digital sensors are flat.  I find that I often spot the blue/purple but rarely see the green but its there.  This is called Axial chromatic aberration and is harder to take out of an image than lateral CA (magenta/green) but remove purple fringing seems to do it in C1 okay. 
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eronald

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2013, 02:23:54 pm »


I don't know where places like DXO get there numbers, but there is no place on their charts for pretty and of course what looks good or doesn't is very user specific.

BC

The camera phones are now driving the industry technology and also to some extent the measurements have to make the new products look good, which means the tests are tweaked to give better numbers for big MP small sensors. Numbers are like cameras: They do show what's there, except they are setup to show what you want them to show. As the famous russian photographer Mevedev put it - there are lies, damn lies and camera tests :)

Edmund

« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:28:44 pm by eronald »
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fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2013, 02:40:03 pm »

Hi,

Half the sensor size...

A smaller sensor allows for better correction of the lens and makes higher demands on the optical designs. Olympus and Panasonic design lenses with less aberrations and higher MTF.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Pana and Oly lenses will measure better, which will give better image may depend on what you are looking for.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for this precision Erik. It makes sense.
Cheers.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2013, 07:09:32 pm »

Hi,

Almost all large aperture lenses have significant axial chromatic aberration. I only know of a single lens that is free from it, and that would be the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar (120 mm?). There may be other lenses that are free from axial chromatic aberration.

Diglloyd found some axial chroma on the Leica S2 lenses he tested, that was showing up as purple fringing. The reason he was sure that it was axial chroma and not a sensor issue was that he could eliminate it using IR and UV cut of filters.

To my surprise, my otherwise excellent Sonnar 150/4 also has axial chroma, see below for a sample at f/5.6. It usually goes away after stopping down a few stops. An identical shot with my Sony 70-400/4.-5.6 at f/8 does not show the color fringing.

The new Zeiss 55/1.4 Apo Distagon is said to have virtually zero axial chroma at full aperture.

Best regards
Erik




A lot of the older lenses designed for film will get the blue/green fringing since the color emulsions had different depths but digital sensors are flat.  I find that I often spot the blue/purple but rarely see the green but its there.  This is called Axial chromatic aberration and is harder to take out of an image than lateral CA (magenta/green) but remove purple fringing seems to do it in C1 okay.  

« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 11:09:30 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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leuallen

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2013, 10:49:05 pm »

Bcooter,

The WISIWIG  EVF is available on the OMD. But they  screwed it up. It does not work if you use the small focus rectangle and in some other modes. But when it does work, it is great. They have one feature that I'd like to see on my GH3: the highlights blink white if overexposed and the shadow turn blue if underexposed in WISIWIG mode.

You probably have been using the camera in one of the modes that the feature is unavailable. I point you in the right direction but the OMD menu makes my head hurt and I can never remember what to set. As a safety, after I set it up the way I wanted, I committed those settings to Myset 1. Check you manual or peruse the web for more info.

Larry
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