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Author Topic: The Chinese are coming  (Read 23487 times)

fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2013, 02:40:03 PM »

Hi,

Half the sensor size...

A smaller sensor allows for better correction of the lens and makes higher demands on the optical designs. Olympus and Panasonic design lenses with less aberrations and higher MTF.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Pana and Oly lenses will measure better, which will give better image may depend on what you are looking for.

Best regards
Erik

Thanks for this precision Erik. It makes sense.
Cheers.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #81 on: July 29, 2013, 07:09:32 PM »

Hi,

Almost all large aperture lenses have significant axial chromatic aberration. I only know of a single lens that is free from it, and that would be the Voigtländer Apo Lanthar (120 mm?). There may be other lenses that are free from axial chromatic aberration.

Diglloyd found some axial chroma on the Leica S2 lenses he tested, that was showing up as purple fringing. The reason he was sure that it was axial chroma and not a sensor issue was that he could eliminate it using IR and UV cut of filters.

To my surprise, my otherwise excellent Sonnar 150/4 also has axial chroma, see below for a sample at f/5.6. It usually goes away after stopping down a few stops. An identical shot with my Sony 70-400/4.-5.6 at f/8 does not show the color fringing.

The new Zeiss 55/1.4 Apo Distagon is said to have virtually zero axial chroma at full aperture.

Best regards
Erik




A lot of the older lenses designed for film will get the blue/green fringing since the color emulsions had different depths but digital sensors are flat.  I find that I often spot the blue/purple but rarely see the green but its there.  This is called Axial chromatic aberration and is harder to take out of an image than lateral CA (magenta/green) but remove purple fringing seems to do it in C1 okay.  

« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 11:09:30 PM by ErikKaffehr »
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leuallen

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2013, 10:49:05 PM »

Bcooter,

The WISIWIG  EVF is available on the OMD. But they  screwed it up. It does not work if you use the small focus rectangle and in some other modes. But when it does work, it is great. They have one feature that I'd like to see on my GH3: the highlights blink white if overexposed and the shadow turn blue if underexposed in WISIWIG mode.

You probably have been using the camera in one of the modes that the feature is unavailable. I point you in the right direction but the OMD menu makes my head hurt and I can never remember what to set. As a safety, after I set it up the way I wanted, I committed those settings to Myset 1. Check you manual or peruse the web for more info.

Larry
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bcooter

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2013, 10:17:39 AM »

Bcooter,

The WISIWIG  EVF is available on the OMD. But they  screwed it up. It does not work if you use the small focus rectangle and in some other modes. But when it does work, it is great. They have one feature that I'd like to see on my GH3: the highlights blink white if overexposed and the shadow turn blue if underexposed in WISIWIG mode.

You probably have been using the camera in one of the modes that the feature is unavailable. I point you in the right direction but the OMD menu makes my head hurt and I can never remember what to set. As a safety, after I set it up the way I wanted, I committed those settings to Myset 1. Check you manual or peruse the web for more info.






Larry

Thanks.  I got in late last night and looked around the web, too much information that doesn't apply.  I'll find the wysiwyg omd thing tomorrow when I have a slight few hours break.

Not to go off topic, but who the hell thought nondescript dials, buried menus an quick keys were the answer for a shutter speed dial and f stop on the lens.  Fuji has it almost right, Leica the same, but all could pick up an old Nikon or Contax and get the idea pretty quickly.

BTW:  Fuji, Leica, Olympus and even Canon should look at the usability of a gh3.    That is the closest to a one camera does all machine made.  Ugly but good.

Anyway,

Between the 1dx, gh3 and omd, it takes a total of 2 days to basically learn the menu, another week for it to become close to intuitive.

Something has gotten lost from electronics and analog when it comes to intuitiveness.



IMo

BC

leuallen

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2013, 11:37:52 AM »


BTW:  Fuji, Leica, Olympus and even Canon should look at the usability of a gh3.    That is the closest to a one camera does all machine made.  Ugly but good.


Don't call my baby Ugly!  :D

Beauty follows function.

Larry

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jsch

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2013, 04:07:03 PM »


...

Not to go off topic, but who the hell thought nondescript dials, buried menus an quick keys were the answer for a shutter speed dial and f stop on the lens.  Fuji has it almost right, Leica the same, but all could pick up an old Nikon or Contax and get the idea pretty quickly.

....
Between the 1dx, gh3 and omd, it takes a total of 2 days to basically learn the menu, another week for it to become close to intuitive.

....

BC

Hi BC,

you are so absolutely definitely positively right. For that reason I don't use any of these cameras. Canon DSLRs are the only exception, because I kind of must use them. But even there try to switch during a job from a 5D Mark II to a 1Ds Mark II and back again – I stopped doing that because it melts down my brain.

BTW, if I hear/read OMD I think always of Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestral_Manoeuvres_in_the_Dark or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXidpKahRs and not to forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHd2M--SKZo)

Best,
Johannes
p.s.: how can you go off-topic in this thread that is the perfect example of something being off-topic.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 04:09:13 PM by jsch »
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EricWHiss

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2013, 06:03:06 PM »

when I'm fine with what I have.
Sounds like it - 4 cameras and no slouches either!     

Its interesting to me how long some of these cameras last like the RZ or the V or 6008 or even TLR.  My TLR is probably 50 yrs old but wow, what a great picture it makes, and it still works like new even the meter.  But can't even remember my first canon digitals which are long gone now already, and who would even want them.   Surely the fates of the new cameras discussed in this thread like the OM-D and D800E will be similar?  Can't imagine someone using them for the length of their career like the RZ or V or TLR or R-8 or M.   So why is that?  What's changed?  Not the prices.

I look at the D800E and wonder (as great as the sensor is) why they couldn't have made it even the quality of viewfinder of their older film cameras,  or give a fast sync speed, or make a camera that isn't as affected by shutter vibration.
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TMARK

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2013, 09:27:34 PM »

I also have a Tech IV and a Sinar P. The Tech IV is from 1953.  I rarely shoot LF film but when I do, I grab the IV. It's light. The rangefinder works. Enough movement for a 90mm lens, although rise is limited by the bellows hitting the body, but Linhof figured as much so they have a tripod mound on the top of the camera for mounting it upside down. More ridged than any other 4x5 I've used or even heard about.

The TLRs are really nice. Love'em.

In any case, with digital the limiting factor is the sensor. If you could swap sensors you could keep say a 1ds forever.  I still shoot with the FM2 now and again and you know in IQ terms it fairs well against other Nikon film cameras of more recent vintage that cost way more because the film is the same as shot in an FM2 or an F5.

If the M8 didn't have so many issues I'd still be shooting one. Scratch that, if Leica NJ service weren't so smug and unhelpful I'd still be shooting my M8. They are much, much better now. Much better, and fast.

The only thing I dislike about the D800 is the finder and the tricky color. My copy has no excessive shutter slap. Handholds well at 1/20th. I get moire handholding at 1/30.



Sounds like it - 4 cameras and no slouches either!     

Its interesting to me how long some of these cameras last like the RZ or the V or 6008 or even TLR.  My TLR is probably 50 yrs old but wow, what a great picture it makes, and it still works like new even the meter.  But can't even remember my first canon digitals which are long gone now already, and who would even want them.   Surely the fates of the new cameras discussed in this thread like the OM-D and D800E will be similar?  Can't imagine someone using them for the length of their career like the RZ or V or TLR or R-8 or M.   So why is that?  What's changed?  Not the prices.

I look at the D800E and wonder (as great as the sensor is) why they couldn't have made it even the quality of viewfinder of their older film cameras,  or give a fast sync speed, or make a camera that isn't as affected by shutter vibration.

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bcooter

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #88 on: July 31, 2013, 12:59:03 AM »


If the M8 didn't have so many issues I'd still be shooting one. Scratch that, if Leica NJ service weren't so smug and unhelpful I'd still be shooting my M8. They are much, much better now. Much better, and fast.


Two nights ago I was packing to go on a location scout and to shoot the subject interview to build the creative brief.  I took 1 gh3, the omd, a shoulder bag of lenses.

Sitting on my desk full charged with new batteries, was my M8.   I fired a shot into the studio with mixed light and it looked so pretty, I thought why not . . . and threw it in the bag also.

Today Set up the gh3 on a tripod, dropped a mike out of frame, ran the gh3 and picked up the M-8, turned it on, red light stays lit, dead.   Switched batteries . . . (new battery) . . . dead, switch cards (recently formatted . . .  dead.

Thought screw it, picked up the OMD and completed the scout and interview.

Tonight, was taking stuff out of the bag and there was the m-8.  Turned it on and bam . . . works fine.]

So T. 

What was that web blog you were going to start?



IMO

BC

fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #89 on: July 31, 2013, 05:14:55 AM »

 ;D ;D ;D
World is small...
Guess what? The exact same
Issue happened to me a week
Ago with a M.
We were doing a personal
Shooting at a friend's place and
Pufffff...out of order just like that,
Then when we didn't need it
Anymore...back to life...by itself.

fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #90 on: July 31, 2013, 07:12:02 AM »

Perhaps she had a headache?

Or maybe she saw my Gainsbourg face
On her sensor and refused to work any longuer...

TMARK

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #91 on: July 31, 2013, 09:58:49 AM »

Its just batty.  The straw that broke the camel's back was a horrific blooming that manifested as jagged edges poking out of blown highlights, like when shooting a high key backlit portrait where you blow a white background with strobes.  These jagged edges would intrude into the subject, and this isn't pixel peeping, this is at 25% and in a letter sized print.  The M8 did this with window light too, this wasn't an extreme, non-approved use of a digital camera.  Leica NJ told me it wasn't a problem after looking at the raws.  I kept sending them.  They kept deneying there was any issue.  It was like a Rumsfeld press conference, a complete denial of reality.  I later found that the PCB board was bad.  I sold it, after disclosing the issue, for $800.  I wanted to rid myself of the camera and Leica.  I tghen sold my M9 and my Zeiss ZM lenses.  But I missed the M9.  So bought another one and its relatively well behaved, just so long as I don't review images when its writing to the card.  Or use it with less than 50% charge, which is down from 70% after some experimentation with shutter modes, card writing, iso's etc.  And when I sent my M9 to have the RF adjusted, they turned it around in 2 days and wer every nice about everything. 

It is love with the M.

Two nights ago I was packing to go on a location scout and to shoot the subject interview to build the creative brief.  I took 1 gh3, the omd, a shoulder bag of lenses.

Sitting on my desk full charged with new batteries, was my M8.   I fired a shot into the studio with mixed light and it looked so pretty, I thought why not . . . and threw it in the bag also.

Today Set up the gh3 on a tripod, dropped a mike out of frame, ran the gh3 and picked up the M-8, turned it on, red light stays lit, dead.   Switched batteries . . . (new battery) . . . dead, switch cards (recently formatted . . .  dead.

Thought screw it, picked up the OMD and completed the scout and interview.

Tonight, was taking stuff out of the bag and there was the m-8.  Turned it on and bam . . . works fine.]

So T. 

What was that web blog you were going to start?



IMO

BC
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Rob C

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2013, 11:14:00 AM »

The other day someone asked me how I was getting on with the Leica to which I replied it's a joy.

Can't remember the last time I said that about a camera.


For myself, I think I remember the last time was when saying similar about the Pentax 67 11; it wasn't a long-lived emotion. Which is a pity. We divorced quite quickly. I hate alimony as a concept.

Rob C

rgmoore

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2013, 01:32:23 PM »

The other day someone asked me how I was getting on with the Leica to which I replied it's a joy.

Can't remember the last time I said that about a camera.

Keith,

If my memory serves me, after many years of Hasselblad use it has taken you some time and patience to switch to Leica.

May I ask which Leica and lenses you find useful for the abandoned buildings type of work that you do?

Thank you.

Richard
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fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2013, 02:19:16 PM »

The other day someone asked me how I was getting on with the Leica to which I replied it's a joy.

Can't remember the last time I said that about a camera.

Included the viewfinder...a joy?

What about focussing accuracy ?
I point that because if I'm not Cooter as a creative
Photographer, my only strengh with a camera is that
I'm normaly very good at manual focussing...except...
With the M. 40% of my shots are not spot-on with this
Camera. It's a huge %...

It's a sliding brick.
Can't decide if it's too big or too small,
Electronic reliability is...german built?
(maybe an heritage of DDR)

Now...files are stunning. No question on that.
 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 02:29:56 PM by fredjeang2 »
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Rob C

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #95 on: August 01, 2013, 04:09:29 PM »

Thanks, Rob, we can always rely on your optimistic attitude and positive vibes!


Hey, a least one of my relationships lasted for life! Okay, not a camera one, because they were sabotaged by the industry, but a relationship nonetheless. Optimism is my middle name - or it will be once the lottery turns my way. I think I've even decided that yes, I would probaby buy a Sunseeker after all, even if just for the bragging rights. You see how photography has affected me?

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 04:18:29 PM by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #96 on: August 01, 2013, 04:18:06 PM »

Included the viewfinder...a joy?

What about focussing accuracy ?
I point that because if I'm not Cooter as a creative
Photographer, my only strengh with a camera is that
I'm normaly very good at manual focussing...except...
With the M. 40% of my shots are not spot-on with this
Camera. It's a huge %...

It's a sliding brick. Can't decide if it's too big or too small,
Electronic reliability is...german built?
(maybe an heritage of DDR)

Now...files are stunning. No question on that.
 

Hi Fred, I remember you telling me that once when I was tempted - ever so slightly...

I believe the heat wave is going to stretch from the Canaries right through the peninsula and across to the Baleares: we shall have a week between 43 and 45 degrees C.

Let's all go out making pictures in the sunshine!

I washed the car today, and since the slot behind the hood (where the wipers nestle) is impossible to clean by hand, I had to open the hood to clear it (the slot) of dead leaves and flowers from the trees where I park when I go to eat.

Inside the engine compartment I found cooked snails. Poor buggers; I'm sure they must have been as surprised as I was.

When I lifted the wipers off the screen, they left strips of rubber behind. That has never happened to me before in 32 years of living in Spain. Global warming, of course, is a myth.

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 04:21:47 PM by Rob C »
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rgmoore

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #97 on: August 01, 2013, 07:53:37 PM »

Richard, I haven't actually switched to Leica, for the moment I've just added an M9 as a walk-around camera. I've an M240 on order and the hope is that with the addition of an EVF and liveview I'll have a system that will allow me to do much that I currently do with the H but at a third of the weight and size. I aim to use either the 21mm Super Elmar-M f3.4 ASPH or possibly the 18mm Super Elmar-M f3.8 ASP. I’ve also experimented using the M9 on a tripod replicating this kind of work of work, the files are excellent but critical framing and composition will be easier with the 240.

In the meantime I'm having great fun with the M9 and a 35mm Summilux f1.4 ASPH. The camera feels analogue in its simplicity and the files have a quality that are similar in feel to the Hasselblad. Perhaps it’s the CCD sensor or lack of AA filter, whatever, I’m enjoying the ride.


Thank you Keith.  I appreciate your reply and comments.

While not giving up photography, I am returning to my first love - painting. A Leica and a couple of lenses would be easier to manage in the field (in addition to shlepping around plein air easel, palette, paints, etc.) than my current Nikon outfit.
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fredjeang2

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2013, 04:04:42 AM »

Hi Fred, I remember you telling me that once when I was tempted - ever so slightly...

I believe the heat wave is going to stretch from the Canaries right through the peninsula and acrossy to the Baleares: we shall have a week between 43 and 45 degrees C.

Let's all go out making pictures in the sunshine!

I washed the car today, and since the slot behind the hood (where the wipers nestle) is impossible to clean by hand, I had to open the hood to clear it (the slot) of dead leaves and flowers from the trees where I park when I go to eat.

Inside the engine compartment I found cooked snails. Poor buggers; I'm sure they must have been as surprised as I was.

When I lifted the wipers off the screen, they left strips of rubber behind. That has never happened to me before in 32 years of living in Spain. Global warming, of course, is a myth.

;-)

Rob C

Hi Rob
How are you? I see in car mechanics.
Yeah
This eat wave is killing me. It's like workin in slow motion.
At least on the island you got the beaches.
But in Madrid's desert...well at least the air is dry.
Same story every year: i forget to store the batteries
In a proper place and they die because of the intense
Heat.
Frankly I don't know if we are into a global warming
Or another cold age. We are now dying of heat when a couple
Of weeks ago we were freezing our bones in the
Coldest spring ever registered here.
Oh well.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 08:17:17 AM by fredjeang2 »
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: The Chinese are coming
« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2013, 04:45:40 AM »

Quote
We've been told it is impossible to produce cutting edge medium format cameras for less than 30,000 US$, right?

I don't believe production cost dictate sales price at all..at least for many companies that have an embedded user base that is constant.
In my experience of products I have dealt with, cost of production has never been a limiting factor to pricing a product. There is a market that is willing to pay X amount, and companies will create all types of needs to convince that market the cost of doing business is X, so therefore much pay it. That is surely not for all. But take a look at Sigma and the $6500 SD1. That is one example, now sold for about $2k. But you don't need a book to extrapolate how that might apply elsewhere. Take a refrigerator for example. The average higher end models for a standard standup model ranges in $2000-3000 +/-.  It is mostly a icebox made of insulation foam injected into CnC machined tin, metals. then you have the finishing in SSteel with other options such as water dispenser, ice maker, and other internal features for convenience...all plastic injected from many inter fitting molds. These are made by huge companies like GE and Samsung, LG, etc. You usually get a 1 year warranty on everything , while some offer a 5 or 7, or 10 on the "Seal components", this only means the compressor, the evap and some regulator. The cost of these parts are 5% of the selling unit. Add a modified main board, so sensors relays and some wiring, you have a $3000 icebox. This same unit could sell with a great profit at $1500. but water dispenser, ssteal finish, and LED lighting can ask for the cost to what the demand is.  Wow, how did I get into appliances?! :-) Anyway, there was a time where at least these items would last you 10 or more years. Now they are 4 or a few years if you luck out.
The sad part is the imports are doing it, the domestic are not doing much better.
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