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Author Topic: Colour of light matters  (Read 38236 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #80 on: July 11, 2013, 02:34:18 pm »

Andrew, again - other way around. You opted out and it is the obvious fact. I'm amazed how uninterested you are in this simple experiment.

It's up to YOU to prove there's an issue here and you haven't and apparently can't! The image is rendered as I desire, period. No dE values will change that fact. You are the one who raised this so called ACR problem but have zero proof to back up the claim. This isn't about copy work or producing an output referred image that somehow colorimetrically matches the scene! It's about creating an image as I desire and I've done that despite being shot under Fluorescent's with a daylight profile. Your demand. So the ball is in your court. You have this idea there's some issue with the ACR engine and DNG profiles built one way, shot under some illuminate. Prove your point. Based on the digressions you've made just today, doesn't seem possible. But I still have an open mind.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #81 on: July 11, 2013, 02:35:23 pm »

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That does not work for me. Compute deltaE and we will not be arguing impressions.

Note to self:

Ignore Iliah's postings from now on for they're a big waste of time to read. Iliah, you have not contributed anything of substance or use to this discussion as far as what I can gather for myself.

You've totally lost credibility with me for sure.
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #82 on: July 11, 2013, 02:38:26 pm »

> Linear data without a profile to define it does look dark!

Any, not only linear gamma image may look bad if proper profile is not assigned.

If matching profile is not assigned a wrong one is necessary assigned. Images may look green, over or underexposed, dark, bright,...

You Andrew being colour management proponent should know better than discussing the looks of images without profiles.

Simple thing, add a comment to Bruce's article to avoid those who did not know him seing him in a wrong light. Instead you are arguing here.

And while you will be on it, read carefully, do your best.
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #83 on: July 11, 2013, 02:39:43 pm »

> Iliah, you have not contributed anything of substance or use to this discussion

Apart from starting it :)

> You've totally lost credibility with me for sure.

Do you have mine?
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #84 on: July 11, 2013, 02:41:14 pm »

> It's up to YOU to prove there's an issue here and you haven't and apparently can't!

I like the mistake you are making :)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2013, 02:44:33 pm »

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> You've totally lost credibility with me for sure.

Do you have mine?

Frankly my dear I don't give a shit!

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digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2013, 02:44:40 pm »

Any, not only linear gamma image may look bad if proper profile is not assigned.
Maybe it will, depends on the data (like all the images on the web without a defined profile in sRGB). Further, I've yet to see any color space without a profile that looks as dark as a linear capture without a assigned profile. But the bigger issue is again, you take us down this rabbit hole, now with Bruce's article which is correct: The image will look dark without the profile.

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Simple thing, add a comment to Bruce's article to avoid those who did not know him seing him in a wrong light. Instead you are arguing here.
Unnecessary. If the image is untagged, it looks dark. In the context of the article and how ACR operates, you'll never get an untagged image out of it. You are again nit picking when it isn't necessary but fail to address big issues like your concept that ACR has some problem which you cannot illustrate.
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #87 on: July 11, 2013, 02:47:35 pm »

Frankly my dear I don't give a shit!



Why do I?
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #88 on: July 11, 2013, 02:49:00 pm »

> Unnecessary.

Necessary.

> If the image is untagged, it looks dark

Depends on my settings.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #89 on: July 11, 2013, 02:56:10 pm »

[/b] The image is rendered as I desire, period.

PS: Andrew, so next time do not come swinging about ICC profiles :-) because your logic can justify anything.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #90 on: July 11, 2013, 03:04:44 pm »

I'll get to the point because now I've found an image example that Iliah needs to study concerning color metrically accurate scenes vs pleasing color...

http://www.janblencowe.com/resources/img/blog_img/4152/CarryingPLaceCrop.jpg

Examine the color rendering character in the digital capture and compare to the "pleasing centric" color rendering in the painting especially in the shadows. This is what Kodak color scientists studied and grappled with when they were deciding on what type of dyes and processes to implement in order to determine whether to render colorimetrically accurate or pleasing results when first coming out with color film processes. They noticed actual colored scenes look different viewed colormetrically accurate on a static 2D surface compared to the actual scene. Big problem if you want to sell film processes.

Since "pleasing rendering" was a subjective concept they decided to study the works of famous photo realistic color paintings such as Vermeer, Rembrandt, etc. in order to understand what "pleasing" color comprised because these were all they had to go on.

There is a lot of optical trickery going on in a painting that doesn't follow exact DeltaE definitions. I studied those optical tricks and understand why they're implemented and is what I see happening when I edit using ACR's color engine. It's just not as pronounced.

Now did I waste your time with that bit of FYI? Can you paint a photorealistic painting on a 2D surface and make it look 3D? I can and until you do you don't know what the hell you're talking about. PERIOD!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 03:07:46 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Iliah

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2013, 03:26:13 pm »

> I've found an image example that Iliah needs to study concerning color metrically accurate scenes vs pleasing color

So you learned something new from that image. Better now then later. Unfortunately the digital part of it looks exposed and processed in a wrong way.

Thing is, we discuss here the tool we apply, and that tool is supposedly accurate colour transform, the starting point. Arguments like "I see it that way" simply do not cut here.

> This is what Kodak color scientists studied and grappled with when they were deciding on what type of dyes and processes to implement in order to determine whether to render colorimetrically accurate or pleasing results when first coming out with color film processes.

I'm afraid your understanding on what Kodak scientists were doing and what goals they were setting is a slight oversimplification and overgeneralization.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2013, 03:30:59 pm »

the "pleasing centric" color rendering in the painting especially in the shadows. T
pleasing ? painting is absolutely horrible... if your are similar then  :-\
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digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2013, 03:31:04 pm »

PS: Andrew, so next time do not come swinging about ICC profiles :-) because your logic can justify anything.
The logic is to dismiss what was written and not proven:
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Yes, there is a problem, and you and some other users may not see it.
It's the writing of what I think now of a religious zealot what has no ability to prove his point. Worse, when asked to produce an image as specified, he tells us that:
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The image you just posted is a perfect example of the problem, and not just this one.
He then suggests that we (I) need to prove that there isn't a problem! There hasn't been one iota of proof to this claim. Then we're taking down another digression of his design about Fraser's article which is a sure sign this person can't prove his point. There may very well be an issue with the ACR engine, but I'm not going to buy that, based on my use of the product until I see demonstrable examples and that's not happened. Again, IF there is a problem, where is it in the image I posted? It appears as I want it to. My logic therefore demands either proof of the problem or I'm going to go my way and dismiss the nay-sayer if you don't mind.
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digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2013, 03:33:08 pm »

So you learned something new from that image. Better now then later. Unfortunately the digital part of it looks exposed and processed in a wrong way.

So you have some dE values to prove that or this is your subjective interpretation?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #95 on: July 11, 2013, 03:36:13 pm »

So you have some dE values to prove that or this is your subjective interpretation?
Tim Lookingbill has them because he (Tim) was claiming that it (digital capture) was "color metrically accurate"... shall be so (to accurately capture "pleasing" painting)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #96 on: July 11, 2013, 03:39:15 pm »

> I've found an image example that Iliah needs to study concerning color metrically accurate scenes vs pleasing color

So you learned something new from that image. Better now then later. Unfortunately the digital part of it looks exposed and processed in a wrong way.

Thing is, we discuss here the tool we apply, and that tool is supposedly accurate colour transform, the starting point. Arguments like "I see it that way" simply do not cut here.

> This is what Kodak color scientists studied and grappled with when they were deciding on what type of dyes and processes to implement in order to determine whether to render colorimetrically accurate or pleasing results when first coming out with color film processes.

I'm afraid your understanding on what Kodak scientists were doing and what goals they were setting is a slight oversimplification and overgeneralization.

Yikes! You really do need to win an argument at all costs that include embarrassing yourself with lame, pointless comebacks like that.

I had to over simplify Kodak scientist's studies because it's too big a subject to explain all the complexities of why judging color rendering performance through the static eye of a spectro in terms of DeltaE doesn't take into account the adaptive nature of human perception that is the cause for coming up with "pleasing color" over accurate when viewed on a 2D surface.

Got any more lame comebacks?


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digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #97 on: July 11, 2013, 03:40:54 pm »

Tim Lookingbill has them because he (Tim) was claiming that it (digital capture) was "color metrically accurate"... shall be so (to accurately capture "pleasing" painting)

The question wasn't addressed to Tim as I hope you're aware. It was addressed to the Iliah who claims there's this issue we can't see but presumably would accept my preferred rendering if provided some dE values of which I could easily create to prove my point as I illustrated (how dE values can be skewed). Iliah has made a comment about the exposure and processing of Tim's supplied image based on some visual interpretation yes? Yet when presented another image captured as he demands, he can't point out the issues he says exists and needs dE values. Kind of two-faced and convenient depending on how you wish to dismiss proving a point.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #98 on: July 11, 2013, 03:43:27 pm »

Yikes! You really do need to win an argument at all costs that include embarrassing yourself with lame, pointless comebacks like that.

I had to over simplify Kodak scientist's studies because it's too big a subject to explain all the complexities of why judging color rendering performance through the static eye of a spectro in terms of DeltaE doesn't take into account the adaptive nature of human perception that is the cause for coming up with "pleasing color" over accurate when viewed on a 2D surface.

Got any more lame comebacks?




I don't think that Iliah has anything against your right to inflict any amount of color damage to our eyes with what you consider "pleasing", he however states that before such damage shall be inflicted it is a nice (or rather the only right) idea to get dE part right and then start hurting our eyes from that point onwards... just my 2c, I might be wrong.
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digitaldog

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Re: Colour of light matters
« Reply #99 on: July 11, 2013, 03:45:23 pm »

Yikes! You really do need to win an argument at all costs that include embarrassing yourself with lame, pointless comebacks like that.
You are being too kind to call it an argument at least based on this definition:

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In logic and philosophy, an argument is an attempt to persuade someone of something, by giving reasons for accepting a particular conclusion as evident.
So far, nothing provided has been even close to evident. We're dealing with a faith based concept, not one expressed with any demonstrable facts.
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