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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 193255 times)

Chris_Brown

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #200 on: July 15, 2013, 08:25:10 pm »

There seems to be a touch of discord here. Perhaps we should discuss the Zimmerman/Martin trial.
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dreed

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #201 on: July 16, 2013, 12:31:10 am »

That's a laugh. I suppose you think Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela are gardens of freedom and democracy?

Well they're doing just as fine as the USA is right now. In the USA, if you don't like an election result and it is close enough, take it to court:
Florida Election Recount

Then to make it harder for the poor and disadvantaged to vote, you introduce new measures such as requiring ID:
Help America Vote Act

Then if you don't like people exercising their freedom of speech outside your office, you introduce legislation telling them where they can exercise their freedom of speech (somewhere not in the public eye):
Freedom of speech zones

... do you want me to go on?

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And you accuse others of living in denial?

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If Snowden is such a martyr to justice and democracy, why is it that that no western industrial nation has offered him asylum when all of them would refuse to extradite a political refugee?

Political interference from the USA.

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Or in your little paranoid world do you actually believe that these countries are in the pocket of the U.S.? I doubt, for example, that anyone could accuse France of being bullied into submission by America. After all, this is the country that told the U.S. to get lost when we wanted them to join in the Iraq invasion in 2003.

More than likely they've been told to stay out and that if they in any way assist (i.e allow Snowden to fly over their country) then they'll be considered accomplices. Thus other countries want to stay the hell out of it and do not want to be in any way seen to assist.

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He's a fool and a spineless simp whose egomania has led him on a false crusade against an imagined injustice.

No, he's quite brave because he's willing to make a stand for what he believes in.

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A much better question is why don't you trust them? All you've offered is paranoia and unsubstantiated accusations. As the accuser, the onus is on you to provide us with evidence to support your argument that the NSA is unworthy of trust. You haven't done that, because there's no substance to your accusations. I'd sooner trust the NSA than your worthless diatribes.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to prove what you're saying, or are we supposed to accept it on faith merely because it comes from you?

NSA denies eillegal spying

DNI Clapper Says Statement to Congress about NSA data collection was erroneous

Would you like me to find your more evidence of the NSA saying one thing but in fact does another?

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Now the truth finally comes out: you're just fine with sitting back and letting terrorists carry out their plans.

No, rather the evidence from your post makes it quite clear that your own personal life is much more important to you than the rights and freedoms upon which the USA was founded.

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You wouldn't lift a finger to prevent an attack on my country, just so you could protect the sacred "privacy" of your phone bill. Well, I'm sorry, but I think that saving lives is more important than your metadata.

And what happens when metadata isn't enough?
Does the boundary get expanded to include phone call contents?
Where does it stop, when the terrorists are all caught?
You do realise don't you that catching all terrorists, before they carry out terrorist attacks, is impossible don't you?

Once you let the government in just a little bit it is really hard to get them out because they'll keep wanting more.

What is at stake here is a whole lot more than the privacy of a phone bill.

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I prefer to say this: if the NSA's Prism program has been compromised because of what your pal Snowden has done, you should offer to dig the graves of the people who are murdered in the next terrorist attack with your bare hands.

And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?
PRISM didn't stop what happened in Boston, so what makes you think it will stop anything else?

In short, this is likely something that can never be proved one way or the other, so this is a rather pointless statement.

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #202 on: July 16, 2013, 03:00:42 am »

Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?

It fact... that makes a lot of sense.

There is clearly a part of the population in Western countries who has been made to be very afraid of the world outside. Their interests happen to closely match those of lobbies such as the weapon and defense lobbies to such an extend that the cause and the effect become unclear, I call them the cluster of fear.

They are of course trying to spread their disease to the rest of our countries and are apparently willing to bypass the democratic safeguards that may come in the way.

Instead of imposing these practices to the rest of us, it would make sense for them to regroup in a smaller entity and claim independence. They wouldn't have to move to China, they could just occupy a subset of the states in the US and cultivate their fear among each others?

My bet is that this new super safe state will attract more terrorism than the rest of the world.

Perfect safety is an illusion, is the counter part of fear, an illusion that eats you and ends up the origin of terror.

Ever noticed that terror and fear are in fact synonyms? The goal of terror is not to kill our citizens, it is to make us afraid to such an extend that we commit a form a suicide, we imprison ourselves in a tower isolated form the world.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:12:56 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #203 on: July 16, 2013, 03:23:34 am »

... do you want me to go on?

Dear God, no!

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #204 on: July 16, 2013, 03:25:13 am »

no... because what goes around comes around.

Sorry, Vlad, haven't the foggiest idea what that means.

It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing. It's used by those who have an urge to say something but have nothing to say.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #205 on: July 16, 2013, 04:07:37 am »

It fact... that makes a lot of sense.

There is clearly a part of the population in Western countries who has been made to be very afraid of the world outside. Their interests happen to closely match those of lobbies such as the weapon and defense lobbies to such an extend that the cause and the effect become unclear, I call them the cluster of fear.

They are of course trying to spread their disease to the rest of our countries and are apparently willing to bypass the democratic safeguards that may come in the way.

Instead of imposing these practices to the rest of us, it would make sense for them to regroup in a smaller entity and claim independence. They wouldn't have to move to China, they could just occupy a subset of the states in the US and cultivate their fear among each others?

My bet is that this new super safe state will attract more terrorism that the rest of the world.

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard, it really depresses me to read you writing this stuff. I had always believed much better, especially from someone well-travelled. I guess we just take different lessons from similar experiences.

Rob C

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #206 on: July 16, 2013, 04:17:42 am »

Bernard, it really depresses me to read you writing this stuff. I had always believed much better, especially from someone well-travelled. I guess we just take different lessons from similar experiences.

It would appear so Rob.

Life has taught me so far that looking at things positively is much more powerful than the opposite, by several orders of magnitude.

It is much more difficult, but I am too young to go for the easy route.

I read Ted, not criminal records.

Contrary to popular belief, it seems that many people in Yemen were mostly pro-West until... a couple of drones killed supposed terrorists... and also a few dozens of collateral damages... normal citizens who had baseball posters in their bedrooms.

Fear created hatred, not the opposite.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:38:37 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #207 on: July 16, 2013, 04:40:14 am »

It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing...

I have to disagree, Jeremy. In this particular case, it is a perfectly appropriate phrase and means a lot. To those who get it, of course. I am sure both you and Russ get it too, just do not want to go there. This debate is contentious enough without having to spell out what the phrase means in the relevant context.

RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #208 on: July 16, 2013, 08:06:20 am »

It's a complete disconnect from the statement it was supposed, profoundly, to refute, Slobodan. You know that as well as I do and as Jeremy does. As such, in context, it's about as meaningful a response as " little lambseaddivy."
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mezzoduomo

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #209 on: July 16, 2013, 09:03:30 am »

Gentlemen,

Get yourselves out of this vortex. Fresh air, sunshine, lens cap off....maybe a beer at about 3 pm.  ;D
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #210 on: July 16, 2013, 09:36:07 am »

It's a pointless cliché, Russ: it means nothing. It's used by those who have an urge to say something but have nothing to say.
it means everything... you helped the same guys that later bite you  ;D... you put a lot of effort to hurt left(ist) seculars, now reap the crop.

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Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #211 on: July 16, 2013, 09:38:10 am »

Perhaps we should discuss the Zimmerman/Martin trial.
but what exactly was on trial there ?
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RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #212 on: July 16, 2013, 11:19:57 am »

it means everything... you helped the same guys that later bite you  ;D... you put a lot of effort to hurt left(ist) seculars, now reap the crop.

Sorry again, Vlad, but I know English isn't your first language, so I have to take that into account. What I said was "That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack." The key word in that sentence is "suffered." I didn't say anything about the source of the attack. That's a different subject, upon which we probably also disagree. The attack would have been thwarted (not suffered) if our security agencies had been allowed to communicate fully with each other. The weren't allowed to do that, so the attack "slipped through the crack," as our left-wingers would have it, as they try to to duck their clear responsibility for the clamp on our security agencies.
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stamper

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #213 on: July 16, 2013, 11:36:49 am »

The blame game reaches new lows?

RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #214 on: July 16, 2013, 12:48:56 pm »

Go ahead, Stamper. Refute it.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #215 on: July 16, 2013, 01:29:57 pm »

Sorry again, Vlad, but I know English isn't your first language, so I have to take that into account.

true, albeit teachers were trying hard to teach me that since 2nd grade, 5 days a week (that was when ? Jimmy Carter was still a president then)... probably I was too lazy  ;)

What I said was "That's exactly why we suffered the 9/11 attack." The key word in that sentence is "suffered." I didn't say anything about the source of the attack.

of course you didn't... however you shall start with the source and the reason why that source happened in the first place...
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RSL

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2013, 03:36:37 pm »

Okay, explain it to me. What do you think was the reason?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2013, 03:56:06 pm »

Okay, explain it to me. What do you think was the reason?

Out of curiosity, what are your views on that point?

Cheers,
Bernard

nemo295

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2013, 04:08:29 pm »

Well they're doing just as fine as the USA is right now. In the USA, if you don't like an election result and it is close enough, take it to court:
Florida Election Recount

Really? Is that your response? "They're doing just fine"? You're even more uniformed than I imagined.

123 Russian journalists have been murdered since Putin came to power. I'm sure their loved ones will be delighted to hear that they're "doing just fine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin_.28incl._2nd_Chechen_conflict.29

Oh, and the relevance of the 2000 vote tally in Florida is?? And what do you suppose the fate of a journalist who broke such a story in Russia or China would be?

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Then to make it harder for the poor and disadvantaged to vote, you introduce new measures such as requiring ID:
Help America Vote Act

You really do have an attention span problem. Again, your response is completely off-topic.

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Then if you don't like people exercising their freedom of speech outside your office, you introduce legislation telling them where they can exercise their freedom of speech (somewhere not in the public eye):
Freedom of speech zones

Snowden's actions went far beyond free speech. He willfully broke the secrecy oath he signed and tried to damage the U.S.

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... do you want me to go on?

Only if you have something to contribute. But judging from your input so far, that doesn't seem likely.

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Political interference from the USA.

More than likely they've been told to stay out and that if they in any way assist (i.e allow Snowden to fly over their country) then they'll be considered accomplices. Thus other countries want to stay the hell out of it and do not want to be in any way seen to assist.
What political interference? What evidence do you have? Nothing! Tell us exactly which countries would be so intimidated by the United States that they would deny someone with a just cause from traversing their skies. I'd really like to know, because there are ZERO European nations who would hesitate to tell the U.S. to "f*ck off" about anything else they care about.

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No, he's quite brave because he's willing to make a stand for what he believes in.


Sure. Right. That's why the first thing he does is run to that bastion of freedom and tolerance called China and then Russia.

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NSA denies eillegal spying

DNI Clapper Says Statement to Congress about NSA data collection was erroneous

Would you like me to find your more evidence of the NSA saying one thing but in fact does another?

What do you mean by "more evidence"? Because there's nothing but unsubstantiated allegations, hearsay and guesswork in the first article you provided and nothing at all in the second one.

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No, rather the evidence from your post makes it quite clear that your own personal life is much more important to you than the rights and freedoms upon which the USA was founded.

Give me a break. The NSA looking at your international phone records is not an attack on anyone's "rights and freedoms". Assuming, for the moment, that you're even an American, tell us what rights and freedoms have been taken away from you?

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And what happens when metadata isn't enough?


What happens if you get a brain?

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Does the boundary get expanded to include phone call contents?

You wouldn't have to ask that question if you had even a cursory understanding of what Prism, or the NSA, is here to do.

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Where does it stop, when the terrorists are all caught?


Now there's a truly idiotic question for you.

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You do realise don't you that catching all terrorists, before they carry out terrorist attacks, is impossible don't you?

I assumed wrong. You're not an American. And now that you've inadvertently tipped your hand, it's clear that you have no vested interest in my country and therefore no moral authority in this discussion.

But to continue our previous thread...you are completely, thoroughly clueless. As a binary thinker, I wouldn't expect you to understand the value of preventing even one attack. Your insistence of an all or nothing justification for a program like Prism betrays an adolescent and self-centered perspective. If Prism prevented even one attack it would be well worth it. But as a matter of fact, through the efforts of the U.S. intelligence services, hundreds of attacks have already been thwarted. But I would gladly trade all the metadata on the planet to save just one life.

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Once you let the government in just a little bit it is really hard to get them out because they'll keep wanting more.

Which government are you referring to--yours or mine? I'm sure mine is having a big laugh looking at your phone bill right now.

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What is at stake here is a whole lot more than the privacy of a phone bill.

If there is, you've made no case for it whatsoever. You've offered no evidence, only the kind of moronic platitudes that one finds on paranoia factories like 4chan.

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And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?


Only thing? You haven't been paying attention.

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PRISM didn't stop what happened in Boston, so what makes you think it will stop anything else?

Again, you display a total ignorance of what Prism does. If you don't have even the most basic facts there's no point of discussing the matter with you further. Come back when you've done your homework, kid.

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In short, this is likely something that can never be proved one way or the other, so this is a rather pointless statement.
Let me put the shoe on the other foot and say that if you don't value your privacy, why don't you go and live in China?

LOL my privacy here in the U.S. is just fine, thank you. Why don't you follow you buddy Snowden to Russia and see how the privacy is over there?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:40:41 pm by Doug Frost »
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Isaac

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #219 on: July 16, 2013, 04:29:03 pm »

Go ahead, Stamper. Refute it.

"An Inability to Disprove Does Not Prove: The fact that there is no concrete proof against a position does not constitute an argument in favor of the position. I cannot claim to be right simply because you can't prove me wrong."

Being Logical, page 124
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