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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 193163 times)

shawnino

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #660 on: October 30, 2014, 06:55:29 am »

And so the story goes...   But think about it.  I mentioned backtracking.  Do you think dozens of moles could have been executed without major investigations going on, bells ringing, and eventually pointing back to the source?   Its possible and of course I know no different, but I would think it highly unlikely.

In the Ames case the bells did ring as the Soviets wrapped up cases so swiftly, so here's something else: even when the CIA knew something was horribly wrong, they did not find the right man (Ames) right away. Agency resources are tied up for a number of years as they searched, and most new operations inside the Soviet Union were put on hold. So in short, by making waves of arrests, the Soviets win three times:
--CIA human intelligence in Soviet Union wiped out
--CIA "too nervous" from a risk/reward point of view to rebuild network for some time
--CIA tearing itself apart searching for the leak in lieu of doing something more productive with those resources.

The only thing the Soviets weren't able to do is frame somebody else for Ames' crimes. Still, three out of four ain't bad.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #661 on: October 30, 2014, 09:05:50 am »

you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.
on the contrary... even for such totalitarian minds like you (I feel like I see my fellow Soviet compatriot, really - the needs of the gov't always trump those of its citizens, because the gov't knows better) it is worth to consider that his disclosures resulted in somewhat better procedures / dealing w/ access to info, etc / inside the relevant agencies, so that gov't can continue to spy /at least/ on its citizens  :D
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Justinr

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #662 on: October 30, 2014, 09:52:13 am »

I really don't think it's a haystack or a needle problem in regards to your references.  My someone educated but more opinionated guess is it has more to do with politics.  Historically when it comes to spying.. legality isn't considered.  The thing about spying.. is secrecy.  You don't spy and tell.  You put on a straight face and only use the information when you must.. and when it can't backtrack.  You talk about Ames.. we didn't know the Russians knew, and what real advantages did it give them?  They knew the information was useless unless they were wiling to be backtracked.. so they settled mostly for just knowing.  When you look at the bigger picture of spying vs. diplomacy vs usefulness.. you start to realize just how much damage Snowden has done.  And after all these months he's had to think about it, apparently he still isn't bright enough to get it.

Damage to whom?
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #663 on: October 31, 2014, 04:13:19 am »

In the Ames case the bells did ring as the Soviets wrapped up cases so swiftly, so here's something else: even when the CIA knew something was horribly wrong, they did not find the right man (Ames) right away. Agency resources are tied up for a number of years as they searched, and most new operations inside the Soviet Union were put on hold. So in short, by making waves of arrests, the Soviets win three times:
--CIA human intelligence in Soviet Union wiped out
--CIA "too nervous" from a risk/reward point of view to rebuild network for some time
--CIA tearing itself apart searching for the leak in lieu of doing something more productive with those resources.

The only thing the Soviets weren't able to do is frame somebody else for Ames' crimes. Still, three out of four ain't bad.

I suppose if you believe the CIA's public testimony this would be true.  Do you?  And what do you think would be worth this public version of events? 
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #664 on: October 31, 2014, 04:16:36 am »

on the contrary... even for such totalitarian minds like you (I feel like I see my fellow Soviet compatriot, really - the needs of the gov't always trump those of its citizens, because the gov't knows better) it is worth to consider that his disclosures resulted in somewhat better procedures / dealing w/ access to info, etc / inside the relevant agencies, so that gov't can continue to spy /at least/ on its citizens  :D

Do you find comfort in labelling people you know nothing about?  In a civil discussion your earn a response no?
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #665 on: October 31, 2014, 04:19:13 am »

Damage to whom?

A very good question, and the answer is what lends validity to my statement.  We don;t know exactly, but we do know the list is long.
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Justinr

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #666 on: October 31, 2014, 04:59:40 am »

A very good question, and the answer is what lends validity to my statement.  We don;t know exactly, but we do know the list is long.

Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #667 on: October 31, 2014, 05:08:56 am »

Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?

Not really, Steve's suggesting that you to trust the government that doesn't trust you.

Cheers,
Bart
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #668 on: October 31, 2014, 10:24:00 am »

Do you find comfort in labelling people you know nothing about? 
as if you know something about Snowden  ;D
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #669 on: October 31, 2014, 02:06:39 pm »

Oh come off it, that is the hollow argument of dictatorships from the beginning of time.  Who is telling us that the list is long? Why, it's the very governments who he has embarrassed, you don't think there might be a wee little bit of self interest there now do you?

Okay, so you don't think any of the information was damaging.  The nations who had their private and/or secret information released disagree. 
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #670 on: October 31, 2014, 02:13:13 pm »

Not really, Steve's suggesting that you to trust the government that doesn't trust you.

Cheers,
Bart

It's more about reality.  The pie in the sky sentiment that everything be open and transparent and that all secrets are inherently bad has been historically disproved time and time again.  It's actually a dangerous mindset held by people who have never been involved in the inner workings of the intelligence machine and therefore can't possibly understand it, at least in it's entirety.     Everyone would like to live in utopia.. except those whose idea of utopia is to harm  you and me..,
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #671 on: October 31, 2014, 02:16:14 pm »

as if you know something about Snowden  ;D

And you think this somehow excuses your inaccurate labelling?  Interesting.

Sir, I've known 1000 Snowdens.  They're not worth the time it takes to describe them.
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Ray

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #672 on: November 01, 2014, 12:21:28 am »

To try and get behind the causes, at a deeper level, of this current alarm of spying on citizens and the general concern about national security, I'm reminded of something I read back in the 1960's when I was a hippie (of sorts  ;D ).

I was fascinated by a so-called 'think tank' study on the necessity of conflict, and in particular the necessity of promoting alarm about potential threats of conflict in order for governments to function and control their citizens.

The think-tank study was called "Report from Iron Mountain". The fact that I still remember the title is an indication that I am not yet suffering significantly from Alzheimer's.  ;)

It was interesting to do an internet search on this title and discover that the entire report may have been a hoax. Here's the wikipedia link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain

But it's still not certain that it was a hoax. I find that very strange, but perhaps indicative of the current, totally confused state that the world is in, according to the incessant, hour by hour, news reports.
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Justinr

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #673 on: November 01, 2014, 05:53:35 am »

Okay, so you don't think any of the information was damaging.  The nations who had their private and/or secret information released disagree. 

Not at all, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, that makes you look rather desperate. Read what I said again and then come back to me or refrain from lashing out wildly with panic in your voice.

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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #674 on: November 01, 2014, 07:32:10 pm »

Not at all, kindly stop putting words in my mouth, that makes you look rather desperate. Read what I said again and then come back to me or refrain from lashing out wildly with panic in your voice.


Wow.. so hostile and well.. desperate and panic stricken.    A wild response for sure.

See how easy that is?  A ten year old can be silly and rude.  Surely we can do better?

What you said sir was nonsensical and was without foundation.  I merely gave you another chance to re-evaluate without embarrassment.  Too bad you passed..
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #675 on: November 01, 2014, 07:34:02 pm »

To try and get behind the causes, at a deeper level, of this current alarm of spying on citizens and the general concern about national security, I'm reminded of something I read back in the 1960's when I was a hippie (of sorts  ;D ).

I was fascinated by a so-called 'think tank' study on the necessity of conflict, and in particular the necessity of promoting alarm about potential threats of conflict in order for governments to function and control their citizens.

The think-tank study was called "Report from Iron Mountain". The fact that I still remember the title is an indication that I am not yet suffering significantly from Alzheimer's.  ;)

It was interesting to do an internet search on this title and discover that the entire report may have been a hoax. Here's the wikipedia link:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Report_from_Iron_Mountain

But it's still not certain that it was a hoax. I find that very strange, but perhaps indicative of the current, totally confused state that the world is in, according to the incessant, hour by hour, news reports.

I remember this from a long time ago.. I think there have been and currently are people of power who believe in this premise. 

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Justinr

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #676 on: November 02, 2014, 05:19:42 pm »

Wow.. so hostile and well.. desperate and panic stricken.    A wild response for sure.

See how easy that is?  A ten year old can be silly and rude.  Surely we can do better?

What you said sir was nonsensical and was without foundation.  I merely gave you another chance to re-evaluate without embarrassment.  Too bad you passed..

Yeah yeah whatever, keep peddling the message and someday somebody might listen.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #677 on: November 15, 2014, 07:26:50 am »

Don't want to revive an old thread but thought this was an interesting talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #678 on: November 15, 2014, 10:12:58 am »

Don't want to revive an old thread but thought this was an interesting talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters

Hi,

Glenn's observations are spot on, which also explains why privacy is considered a human right and violation is criminal (unless properly sanctioned by a court of law that could stand the scrutiny of it's peers).

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 10:14:35 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?
« Reply #679 on: November 16, 2014, 04:46:59 am »

Glenn's observations are spot on, which also explains why privacy is considered a human right and violation is criminal (unless properly sanctioned by a court of law that could stand the scrutiny of it's peers).

Without getting too technical, Bart, there are precious few countries in which infringement of a "human right" is a criminal offence, as opposed to a civil wrong. It's certainly not the case in the UK.

Jeremy
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