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Author Topic: Leica teasing a "mini M"  (Read 11952 times)

hasselbladfan

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M" - Tokyo will know first
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 08:14:15 AM »

I guess our Japanese friends will be first to know .....  ;)
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telyt

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2013, 10:16:43 AM »


Get out your smelling salts for the projected price: $3100  Now who would buy this, he asked?  It's an APS-C sensor at the price of a FF sensor.  The lens has max f/6.4 aperture at 70mm.  It just seems that Leica wants to take their "M" dna and go laughing all the way to the bank.  I'd buy the Fuji over this thing without a moment's pause.  Does Leica, like Hasselblad, think that every outsourced camera they create that bears their marque is instantly an art treasure?

The target market is China, where the demand for high-end goods of all kinds is matched only by the distain for anything Japanese.  BTW an outsourced product wouldn't be marked "Made in Germany".
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bcooter

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2013, 12:46:27 PM »

For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

IMO

BC

Rob C

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 01:04:06 PM »

For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

IMO

BC


I thought that's what they were for? Or were you thinking dentists and stockbrokers?

;-)

Rob C

TMARK

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 02:29:35 PM »

The Mini-M is the last camera I would ever consider.  But its not for me, so have at it Leica.

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telyt

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2013, 03:24:31 PM »

Many think it's compulsory.

I consider it optional.  That's not what I think when using most other (non-Leica) lenses.
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LKaven

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2013, 09:42:50 PM »

For 3 grand they sell the heck out of these (at least in Leica terms) and how many people shoot any leica wide open?

When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?

BJL

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2013, 10:09:07 PM »

When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?
Indeed: that is the same DOF control as f/9.6 in 35mm format. Or from where I stand: when wide open gves you smaller maximum effective aperture diameters and thus less DOF control than Four Thirds format with its mid-speed f/2.8-3.5 and f/2.8-4 zooms, and the inferior low-light performance that also goes with such limited maximum aperture sizes ...
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telyt

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2013, 10:24:57 PM »

When wide open is f/6.4, how much choice does that leave one?

Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.
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LKaven

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 11:19:07 PM »

Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.

Wow.  So an M9P plus Noctilux is given as the "his" side of the gift, and the X1/X2 as the "hers"?  To business "acquaintances"?  And likely never used? 

Is this like a thinly veiled bribe for getting a contract?

telyt

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2013, 12:50:49 AM »

Wow.  So an M9P plus Noctilux is given as the "his" side of the gift, and the X1/X2 as the "hers"?  To business "acquaintances"?  And likely never used? 

Is this like a thinly veiled bribe for getting a contract?

Possibly.  And a costlier purchase for an item not made in Japan creates a better impression than a camera that represents a better value.
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bcooter

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2013, 05:47:32 AM »


I thought that's what they were for? Or were you thinking dentists and stockbrokers?

;-)

Rob C

I've seen a lot of people that were amateur photographers carry non M cameras.  They may not know every F stop, or how to processes a file in 12 layers in photoshop, but they like to take pictures and they like fine equipment.    Love it, or hate it, a lot of people that we call dentist and investment bankers, still enjoy photography, some very much and love the thought of the traditional Leica name.

Making a faster constant 12 to 25 or 24 to 50 constant F 2.8 lens would have been nice but been a big lens.  My 12 to 35 pana lens is big and it's made for 4/3's.   I don't think that would have made a great carry around lens for that camera.

Leica could have also made fast primes in the 1.8. 1.4 range but that doesn't make a single carry along camera.

Also the days of format are not as important as they were in the film era.  I like larger formats, they have some great advantage, but really, the proof is in the lcd.  If the image looks good, then format is forgotten.  I just received my omd with four fast primes, from 12 to 75 and in ten minutes I forget it's not a traditional 35mm full frame format.  The 75mm is a 150, the 12 a 24 the 25 a 50 and once on the camera I never think about conversion factors or anything other than the image.

Overall, the new mini it's not a camera I think I'd buy, but it's not a bad idea and I am sure the people that buy it will enjoy it.

I hope Leica does well with it, real well, because it helps infuse cash into their other lines.

Still, I find it interesting that some man people love Leica, so many have the opposite take.   For me I learned photography from the old Leica Manual I checked out of the Library a billion times, so maybe I'm partial.

IMO

BC

LKaven

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2013, 06:35:11 AM »

BC, I like Leicas.  I like Panasonics too.  But what I truly hate is a fake-out on a short con. 

Even worse, the Lunar.  After looking at that camera, I need a shower and a pumice stone.

BJL

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Leica "mini M", officially announced as the X Vario
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2013, 12:22:53 PM »

Making a faster constant 12 to 25 or 24 to 50 constant F 2.8 lens would have been nice but been a big lens.  My 12 to 35 pana lens is big and it's made for 4/3's.   I don't think that would have made a great carry around lens for that camera.

Leica could have also made fast primes in the 1.8. 1.4 range but that doesn't make a single carry along camera.
I agree that there are trade-offs, and a lot of photographers mostly cared about large apertures for speed, not for artistic OOF effects, and for them, modern sensors allow adequate speed with zoom lenses rather than primes, and with zooms of smaller maximum apertures, all combining to give smaller, lighter cameras that can still in most respects greatly outperform 35mm film cameras. But some middle ground on zoom lens speed, like f/3.5-5.6 or f/2.8-4 might have been more appropriate for a brand associated with high quality.

I hope Leica does well with it, real well, because it helps infuse cash into their other lines.
Yes, maybe this is the pragmatic, unsentimental approach.

P. S. for "closure" here is the official news, but with no surprises:
http://us.leica-camera.com/photography/compact_cameras/x_vario/
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 03:01:32 PM by BJL »
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BJL

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Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2013, 05:04:51 PM »

The one last hope of a justification for the Leica X Vario's small aperture 18-46mm, f/3.5-6.4 lens was keeping size and weight down. But it weighs 680g (with battery), slightly more than the 660g of the Fujifilm X-E1 with its longer and far brighter 18-55mm f/2.8-4 kit lens (also with battery --- and with EVF, IS in the lens, and the ability to swap lenses, all of which the Leica X Vario lacks).

I have not seen a measurement of the depth of the XE-1 with the 18-55 attached, but the height and width of the two cameras' bodies are very similar, so from the photos, the depth looks similar too:



« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 05:08:54 PM by BJL »
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hasselbladfan

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Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2013, 05:49:55 PM »

.... the Fujifilm X-E1 has the ability to swap lenses, all of which the Leica X Vario lacks ....

I would say even more .....

..... on the Fuji X-E1 you can put Leica M prime lenses, which you cannot on the Mini M .....

You wonder if Leica ever listens to its consumers.

Very disappointing.
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TMARK

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Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2013, 06:49:28 PM »

I would say even more .....

..... on the Fuji X-E1 you can put Leica M prime lenses, which you cannot on the Mini M .....

You wonder if Leica ever listens to its consumers.

Very disappointing.

I think Leica does listen to the voice of the consumer, and in this case the voice is speaking Mandarin.
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telyt

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Re: Even the weight is disappointing given the small maximum apertures
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2013, 11:12:13 PM »

I think Leica does listen to the voice of the consumer, and in this case the voice is speaking Mandarin.

+1
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TMARK

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2013, 11:39:45 PM »

Irrelevant in the target market; from a Hong Kong Leica dealer: http://leica-users.org/leica-users/v52/msg08754.html

The X Vario is perfect for the 'hers' side of a his-and-hers set.

In the west luxury consumption is a flat or declining market. It may seem hard to believe, but it's part of the Great Recession's hangover. People would rather spend on cultural goods or low key, utilitarian, honest, quality goods with a transparent manufacturing and supply chain.  In China conspicuous consumption is still in vogue, and will be for some time. 

I say have at it Leica. Sell cases of these things, spend the profits on M and S development.
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LKaven

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Re: Leica teasing a "mini M"
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2013, 12:18:20 AM »

I wonder why they are peddling the same line in the west?  It seems they would be risking putting many of us off the brand.  I'll always have a certain suspicion about them.

Have you ever heard of the term "costly signaling"?  It refers to the expenditure of one's evolutionary advantage in measure to signal to another animal that you have fitness to spare.  For example, there is a gazelle that makes a display of jumping up and down in front of a lion, expending some of his valuable energy.  The intent is to signal to the lion that he has enough fitness to spare that he wouldn't be worth the lion's effort. 
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