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Author Topic: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...  (Read 104536 times)

jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #240 on: May 14, 2013, 11:25:15 AM »

For me, these are the things I only go to PS to nowadays. I'd also like something I'll call 'color stacking', for situations where part of your image has a warm and another a cool color temp [like a mountain valley partially in shadow].
Why not use gradients/brush with colour temp adjustment in LR? If you are trying to modify specific areas of colour temperature that is.
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jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #241 on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:56 AM »

Speaking of blue sky stuff, I can't think of an easier and thus better metaphor for "layers and masks".  Why do we need to throw out this concept simply because it has been around for a long time in the imaging industry? It is brilliant, so IMHO, any truly competent image editor needs to have it. I'm aware of OnOne Perfect layers, but LR without layers and mask sophistication on a par with PS makes it incomplete and insufficient for my needs. Its absence in LR is the only reason I have to keep returning to PS. While on the subject of "tried and true" image editing features like layers and masks , I can think of a parallel debate going on currently with computer OS software designers. It has to do with "files and folders".  Many OS designers now say the files and folders concept is an antiquated metaphor and confusing to the young generation of smart phone users.  New mobile OS's for smartphones and tablets are increasingly being designed by software teams that feel we should dispense with this time honored analogy to paper filing cabinets for records management. Seriously? The files and folders paradigm works, and it ported very well to digital records management. Why throw it away and hide where our files are kept so that each individual application has to outsmart us to find our files? Stupid, stupid, stupid. This movement to do away with the files and folders concept will cause all sorts of file migration (and migraine) headaches for digital librarians and archivists in the near future. Hence,  a personal plea to all the software engineers following this thread.... KEEP both the "boringly conventional" files/folders and layers/masks concepts solidly in place on whatever new image editing software program you choose to give us.
Absolutely. Some ideas get adopted and copied because they are actually very good.
What one needs to be aware of of is when you are trying to reinvent the wheel and when you actually coming up with a useful new paradigm. Being different purely for the sake of it isn't particularly clever and as Jeff mentioned above, somethings in LR were done that way as it developed and it wasn't better.
With regard to layers - in one sense LR already has adjustment layers as you can think of the various options in develop module as just that and then the masking of adjustment layers is done with brushes/gradients, with the masks containing the instructions instead, rather than the other way around. And brushes/gradients can also be used if you want to double/triple up on 'adjustment layers" effects.

And with particular regard to the move away from folders, the cynic in me tends to think it's not done to benefit the end user, but to make it very, very difficult to then leave the programme/OS that uses that system.
I prefer to use the folder paradigm for two reasons:
1: It works with humans.
2: It works with a variety of programmes, not just the programme which organised the files [or maybe other programmes by same manufacturer].

Obviously some people's folder structures are a bit rubbish, but as long as it makes sense to them...... ;)
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Jim Kasson

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #242 on: May 14, 2013, 12:21:20 PM »

I (and you?) tend to focus on the processing pipeline, the image processing mathematics and such. This tends to make up a surprising small percentage of the people, resources and codelines in a commercially successful application. There are umpteen factors that affect peoples happiness with a product.

You're right. Still, the more I think about it., the more I think there's a lot to be gained by doing more in the background. Lr is pretty darned good at that, and Ps is at square two. We just got background saves in CS6. We still don't have background histogram calculations on 16-bit images; we have to click on the little icon for a recalc. We can't apply a filter, turn off that layer while it calculates, and work on another layer. We can't crop while a filter is running. Ps doesn't calculate as much of a filter it needs to update the display and do the rest in the background. We can't run a filter on one open image while we work on another.

Jim

Jim Kasson

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #243 on: May 14, 2013, 12:27:41 PM »

Current graphics cards have >1GB of memory, I don't think that buffer storage is the issue.

Yes, the Nvidia Tesla cards run between 5 and 8 GB of ECC RAM. $4.5K, 235 watts for the fastest one.

And 1.3 teraflops! The mind reels. Of course, as you and others have pointed out, there's a lot more to processing power than adding up the individual core numbers.

[Oops, sorry. The 1.3 Tflops is for double precision fp. For single precision, the number is almost 4 Tflops.]

Jim
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 04:35:56 PM by Jim Kasson »
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jjwithers

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #244 on: May 14, 2013, 03:07:19 PM »

I may be one of the only people here that is really happy with Photoshop as-is.  I would like it if all the bugs got fixed though.
(the healing bug that looks like an oil slick when healing on a semi-opaque area of a layer, The fact that CS6 doesn't save all the time to servers, and a few others).
The Just Do It initiative was a good one where Adobe fixed, updated or tweaked many of the old tools that needed it.  There are still more that need attention.... (transform tool, paths, and MANY more...).
And of course performance issues can always be improved.

I am not a Lightroom user so I rely heavily on Bridge for file browsing.  I know many others that do the same.
I really dislike Lightroom because I am using any one of 5 different computers to work on in a given day accessing files on portable drives or from a server. Lightroom and the catalogs don't play nicely on a variety of different machines.   I thought Lightroom would be a great application but to be honest, I can work just as fast in Photoshop and rarely have a use for Lightroom.  It also bogs down my machine heavily...
And I need to layer ALL my images for one reason or another.

In Photoshop, I never use 3D.
But i have made animated gifs, I use type, I use about 20% of the filters, i've been known to vector-layer from time to time, i use paths and channels heavily, I'm always doing custom CMYK conversions...

I'd be afraid that some sort of Photoshop replacement would require learning a new language so to speak.  The tools in Photoshop have become second nature to most of us. 

-josh
(hello Jeff, i hope you are well in Chi-Town)


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Schewe

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #245 on: May 14, 2013, 03:24:19 PM »

I'd be afraid that some sort of Photoshop replacement would require learning a new language so to speak.  The tools in Photoshop have become second nature to most of us. 

Hi Josh...good to see you here...

With regards to the above, I don't think you would be a candidate for a Photoshop alternative because, well, you need Photoshop and you fall into the category; professional digital imaging/retouching/prepress that needs the full Photoshop package. However, many digital photographers (pros, non-pros) do not. So, that's kinda the issue...people who use Lightroom only need a portion of Photoshop on a subset of images and don't need everything Photoshop has to offer. That's what we're trying to arrive at, what besides Lightroom would users need for the relatively few trips to Photoshop people need.
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LKaven

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #246 on: May 14, 2013, 03:51:41 PM »

I'd be afraid that some sort of Photoshop replacement would require learning a new language so to speak.  The tools in Photoshop have become second nature to most of us. 

The node-based (dataflow) architecture could provide a compatibility module for photoshop "classic".  I think for many reasons, this would be essential.  You can't steal all those customers without being able to process all their legacy files and giving them something they already know as a place to start.

jjwithers

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #247 on: May 14, 2013, 05:59:35 PM »

Hi Josh...good to see you here...

With regards to the above, I don't think you would be a candidate for a Photoshop alternative because, well, you need Photoshop and you fall into the category; professional digital imaging/retouching/prepress that needs the full Photoshop package. However, many digital photographers (pros, non-pros) do not. So, that's kinda the issue...people who use Lightroom only need a portion of Photoshop on a subset of images and don't need everything Photoshop has to offer. That's what we're trying to arrive at, what besides Lightroom would users need for the relatively few trips to Photoshop people need.

To me, that is probably a big reason that I do not use Lightroom.  It lacks so many 'basic' photoshop features that I end up just doing all my editing in Photoshop.

I have various rendering application uses pertaining to various shoots.  Typically at my 'day job' Photoshop is the only answer.

However, when I am shooting music festivals and need to process decent quantities of images that are all organized in folders (not simply organized within Lightroom), rated, keyworded, the images need a similar look, perhaps slight retouching, rendered into 3 different files sizes, with a watermark, custom naming convention, etc... 
I always think Lightroom is the app I need but I eventually start bogging down the machine (laptop) and get frustrated and move into Photoshop with a few actions built. 
I also need to transfer those RAW and rendered files later into a variety of locations and have all those adjustments/retouching accessible again (from any of those locations) and possibly editable in Photoshop at a later date.   



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rdonson

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #248 on: May 15, 2013, 10:01:50 AM »

I'm not going to repeat what seems like obvious choices for a Photoshop for Photographers that others have offered.  For me things may be a bit different.

First, I'm a devoted LR user.  I use the Nik collection in LR and PS and enjoy their approach to image editing as fast, easy and intuitive.  I also use Pixelmator.  It has a lot of base Photoshop features and other tricks I'd never expect to show up in Photoshop.  Its also $15 from the Mac App Store.

Two things that I use Photoshop come from LR.
  • The ability to take multiple images to 32 bit HDR and back to LR
  • Panoramas
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Ron

rasterdogs

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #249 on: May 15, 2013, 11:21:00 AM »

By Jove they've done it! 
These features are needed in any enhanced/new app for photos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HPTc79Qw2g4
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #250 on: May 15, 2013, 11:47:05 AM »

By Jove they've done it! 
These features are needed in any enhanced/new app for photos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HPTc79Qw2g4
Just think what Rounded Corners can do for your architectural shots!!!


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http://myrvaagnes.com  Visit my photo website. New images each season. Also visit my new website: http://ericneedsakidney.org

s4e

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #251 on: May 15, 2013, 06:17:36 PM »

Hi Josh...good to see you here...

With regards to the above, I don't think you would be a candidate for a Photoshop alternative because, well, you need Photoshop and you fall into the category; professional digital imaging/retouching/prepress that needs the full Photoshop package. However, many digital photographers (pros, non-pros) do not. So, that's kinda the issue...people who use Lightroom only need a portion of Photoshop on a subset of images and don't need everything Photoshop has to offer. That's what we're trying to arrive at, what besides Lightroom would users need for the relatively few trips to Photoshop people need.
Very much agree. People using a lot of Photoshop functionallity or prefering Photoshop instead of Lightroom allready have a good option. Or Adobe could just offer Photoshop light version with some functionallity removed. The big gap is for Lightroom users.
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Gulag

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #252 on: May 15, 2013, 06:23:05 PM »

Very much agree. People using a lot of Photoshop functionallity or prefering Photoshop instead of Lightroom allready have a good option. Or Adobe could just offer Photoshop light version with some functionallity removed. The big gap is for Lightroom users.

Photoshop CS2 is still a free download from Adobe's site. Is CS2 too shabby for most people's increasingly insatiable technical needs? Do they really think , for example, their work must require the floating-point 32-bit Color Picker in CS6's CC version? You have your own answers, of course.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 06:27:07 PM by Gulag »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #253 on: May 15, 2013, 10:15:34 PM »

Feeling the fear from all these discussions prodding me to upgrade to either CS6 or Lightroom, I decided to download the trial version of Lightroom 4 (LR 5 beta won't run on my current system) and I'm finding little gotcha's that haven't been mentioned here when "Edit in" is invoked for further editing in Photoshop.

Well it seems Lightroom writes a copy in the format (jpeg/tiff) of choice chosen in LR Preferences of the Raw image whenever THE RAW ENGINES OF PS's ACR AND LIGHTROOM DON'T MATCH!


This happened when I chose CS3 Photoshop with ACR 4.6 edited Raw so I could try out JUST TO SEE if further edits like sharpening and maybe HiPass midtone contrast layer could improve things and cancel out if I saw it didn't. I don't look forward to continuously deleting duplicates of Raws whenever I want to experiment a bit.


It doesn't happen when I choose CS5.1.


Might want to fix that on the "Blue Sky" Photoshop/Lightroom marriage.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2013, 10:17:08 PM by tlooknbill »
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Schewe

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #254 on: May 15, 2013, 11:03:58 PM »

Well it seems Lightroom writes a copy in the format (jpeg/tiff) of choice chosen in LR Preferences of the Raw image whenever THE RAW ENGINES OF PS's ACR AND LIGHTROOM DON'T MATCH!


That's as expected and designed. If the LR/ACR engine don't match LR must first render the image, save it and then pass it off to Photoshop. That's the only way to process the LR settings. If ACR & LR match, LR can simply pass the image to ACR for rendering. That's the way it's been since the beginning and unlikely to be changed in the future.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #255 on: May 16, 2013, 12:21:04 AM »

That's as expected and designed. If the LR/ACR engine don't match LR must first render the image, save it and then pass it off to Photoshop. That's the only way to process the LR settings. If ACR & LR match, LR can simply pass the image to ACR for rendering. That's the way it's been since the beginning and unlikely to be changed in the future.

I understand that, Jeff. I just didn't know the result was an unwanted automatic duplication of the file.

But really I just wanted to point out how the current separate upgrade path scenario between (perpetual license) LR and the required companion pixel editor, PS (now a CC only upgrade), creates problems that can be remedied by combining a "Blue Sky" (perpetual license) Photoshop version with LR as a complete upgrade package similar to CS series of Bridge/ACR/PS.

Just thought these kinds of small issues between the two apps in their current state needed to be pointed out.

As an example just for clarity let's say those that stick with CS6 and don't go CC subscription for further upgrades to Photoshop (when upgrading LR that may have a newer Raw Engine) would now require CS6's ACR engine to be upgraded as well or else deal with the duplicated file scenario and any other potential workflow snags in the future with newer versions of LR.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 12:33:02 AM by tlooknbill »
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rovanpera

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #256 on: May 16, 2013, 12:36:49 AM »

Here is my current LR-PS-LR workflow:

I have divided the adjustments in LR into 2 categories.

1. Basic Corrections:

wb
basic tone
noise reduction
lens corrections
calibration

this gives me a clean starting point for further corrections,
and this is what I export to PS, either for doing all further corrections in PS, or doing some editing in PS and bringing the file back to LR.

Some of the basic corrections are already adjusted in my camera specific default settings.



2. Creative Corrections:

tone curve
clarity
sharpening
treatment
color
split toning
graduated filters
adjustment brushes
effects

These the creative adjustments. Most of my develop presets only apply Creative Corrections. I have subsets like custom curves, color treatments, vignettes, sharpening etc.

No Creative Corrections are adjusted in my camera specific default settings.


Here is the workflow for prepping an image in LR for editing in PS:


- Adjust raw image, Basic Corrections and Creative Corrections
- take snapshot of all settings
- zero creative settings (adjustment preset)
- export image as 16 bit psd and import it back to LR stacked with original
- apply snapshot to original raw
- copy all settings from original raw to edited psd
- zero basic settings in edited psd (adjustment preset)

now I can open the psd for editing in photoshop and after saving the Creative Corrections are automatically applied to the edited psd in Lightroom.

Problems with the workflow:

- lots of manual clicking, snapshots, copy/paste etc.
- the corrections look slightly different when applied to psd vs raw, notably the vignettes.
- I can only see the "flat" psd when working in PS, I get to see the Creative Corrections in LR after saving in PS. I would prefer to see the Creative Corrections applied real time while editing the psd in PS.
- Sometimes something goes wrong and LR resets the Creative Corrections on the psd after editing it in PS, it's good to have a snapshot of the settings in case this happens.
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Rhossydd

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #257 on: May 16, 2013, 02:18:59 AM »

Photoshop CS2 is still a free download from Adobe's site.
Legally it isn't 'free'. You should have an appropriate licence to install it.

It will be interesting to see what happens further down the line. Will they need to shut down other authentication servers and release further unlock codes for more recent software ?

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Schewe

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #258 on: May 16, 2013, 02:42:20 AM »

As an example just for clarity let's say those that stick with CS6 and don't go CC subscription for further upgrades to Photoshop (when upgrading LR that may have a newer Raw Engine) would now require CS6's ACR engine to be upgraded as well or else deal with the duplicated file scenario and any other potential workflow snags in the future with newer versions of LR.

While Photoshop CS6 will get ACR 8.x (which will be able to render LR5 settings as long as the version are matched up) yes, there's always a chance that being out of sync will cause the render in LR behavior...nature of the beast an it's been this way since the beginning of Lightroom. Being new means you need to learn the ropes...
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Rick Popham

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #259 on: May 16, 2013, 07:08:37 AM »

I understand that, Jeff. I just didn't know the result was an unwanted automatic duplication of the file.

Is that really a problem?  After all, if you bring the image into Photoshop for adjustments you'll have to save the file anyway -- either as a tiff or a PSD -- in order to keep those changes.  Of course, it doesn't allow you to just back out of Photoshop if you don't like the changes without deleting that TIFF that LR created.

As Jeff said, we have the next little while for things to remain compatible.  If the "Blue Sky" product ever comes to pass, and it's integrated with LR, we probably won't have to worry about stuff like this.

I have a question about the ACR 8 update to CS6.   Granted it won't have the new features of the ACR CC version, but I take it LR 5 WILL have those features.  So will files generated by LR5, using those new features, open without issue in CS6?  
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 07:11:01 AM by Rick Popham »
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