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Author Topic: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...  (Read 111692 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #340 on: December 18, 2013, 08:48:59 AM »

So, what's the status of this project? Is Thomas going ahead with the design?

Schewe

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #341 on: December 18, 2013, 01:58:20 PM »

Nothing to report...
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StephaneB

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #342 on: December 18, 2013, 06:00:52 PM »

I suspect CC for photographers killed off any rationale for such a project.
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Stéphane

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nma

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #343 on: December 19, 2013, 10:19:50 PM »

Should start with floating point reprrsentation of image data to accommodate the sensors of the future. Then assess needs for processing.
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LKaven

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #344 on: December 20, 2013, 01:59:27 AM »

I suspect CC for photographers killed off any rationale for such a project.

Adobe has been killing off innovation for years. 

Although parts of Photoshop have been contributed by talented DSP engineers, the core design of the application is an amateurish design of the worst kind that has been kept alive for fifteen years by sheer dint of force.

StephaneB

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #345 on: December 20, 2013, 03:21:01 AM »

Adobe has been killing off innovation for years. 

Although parts of Photoshop have been contributed by talented DSP engineers, the core design of the application is an amateurish design of the worst kind that has been kept alive for fifteen years by sheer dint of force.

Wow, I didn't mean it at all in that way.

My point is that Photoshop, LightRoom and ProSite all for $10/month is an excellent deal that makes it pointless for anyone at Adobe to develop an alternative tool and extremely difficult for us to justify looking for alternatives.

I happen to find Photoshop brilliant. It does many tihngs I don't need, but what I need is better done in Photoshop than in any other software.
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Stéphane

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Rhossydd

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #346 on: December 20, 2013, 04:13:36 AM »

My point is that Photoshop, LightRoom and ProSite all for $10/month is an excellent deal that makes it pointless for anyone at Adobe to develop an alternative tool and extremely difficult for us to justify looking for alternatives.
If it's an "Excellent deal" depends on your point of view, and that subject has been picked to pieces enough already.

I think many of us would like to see a replacement for Photoshop that's tailored specifically for photographers, rather than being a 'everything for everyone' package.
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LKaven

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #347 on: December 20, 2013, 04:51:37 AM »

I think many of us would like to see a tool that is built upon a powerful and elegant virtual machine at the lowest level, coupled with a layer of functionality above it that is tailored specifically for photographers.  The difficulty is that understanding how one would tailor the level of functionality for photographers would be informed by knowledge about the potential of the underlying virtual machine architecture.  Only when those two concerns can be brought together will one be able to create a truly modern tool.

There is little about photoshop that is brilliant.  There are just artists who are resourceful.

LKaven

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #348 on: December 20, 2013, 06:57:25 AM »

It's not exactly an either/or proposition. 

jrsforums

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #349 on: December 20, 2013, 08:22:24 AM »

I find the comments on "amateurishness" interesting.  I actually think that Photoshop is a pretty well running system for a package that had been essentially "cobbled together" over a 20+ year period.  Could it be better designed and more efficient if it were restarted and redesigned from scratch...of course....but at what expense...and cost to the user...??

As far as a trimmed down package.  I would like the proponents of that to build a list of what functions in Photoshop they would like included and those excluded.....and then get concurrence from the photographic community on the lists.  :-)

John
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John

Rhossydd

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #350 on: December 20, 2013, 10:16:20 AM »

 I would like the proponents of that to build a list of what functions in Photoshop they would like included and those excluded.....and then get concurrence from the photographic community on the lists.  :-)
That's exactly what this thread is supposedly doing.
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digitaldog

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #351 on: December 20, 2013, 10:24:13 AM »

I think many of us would like to see a replacement for Photoshop that's tailored specifically for photographers, rather than being a 'everything for everyone' package.
Yeah like Photoshop Lightroom <g>
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Andrew Rodney
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Isaac

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #352 on: December 20, 2013, 11:17:05 AM »

Like LR + luminosity masks.
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sniper

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #353 on: December 20, 2013, 05:42:27 PM »

Why would the "new" version of photoshop (or whatever it's called) want less features than we have now, what I'd add to photoshop is better batch processing options, something that doesn't need images to be imported to edit several images at a time.
This sounds like someones planning on cutting back on the photoshop we know and love.
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LKaven

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #354 on: December 20, 2013, 05:56:51 PM »

The cost would certainly be high for a ground-up redesign, but the benefits would be considerable as well.

There is a phase in which to involve photographers in the process.  Best is to lay the architectural groundwork that would support most any consideration that a photographer (or designer artist, or, or ...) would want.  The usability part of the problem, believe it or not, isn't the hard part.  

Besides, if you ask users prematurely what they want, what you end up with is something like "give me what I already know PLUS-or-MINUS something" which leads to an ad hoc death spiral.  

Let me give you an example of how it might work.

- Develop an architecture based upon a virtual machine (VM) with a nodal, dataflow architecture.  

- The (considerable) features and complexities of the VM can be /hidden or revealed/ in application layers as desired for different levels of users and suited for different purposes.

- The VM allows for a compatibility layer with the historical application where needed.

- The VM allows one to retain, where desired, all intermediate stages of the processing right down to the individual brush stroke, which may be modified in any way at any time.  The intermediate stages may be either baked-in or recomputed at will.  Sets of actions may be aggregated.

- The VM allows unlimited re-use of intermediate data in more than one stage of the processing.  This also allows for any number of derivative intermediates, which retain their dependencies on the original data in every sense, and may be themselves re-used.

- The VM provides all the abstractions needed for efficient concurrent processing without need for special cases.

- The VM allows for a very high-level, object-based scripting language, which in turns allows for sophisticated actions to be built up out of primitives.  Programs written in the scripting language may be shared at will.  The clear-cut semantics of the scripting language allow users to communicate in clear and unambiguous language about their techniques.  

- The application layers above the VM would allow for all the things that one does or can do now, including an outright compatibility layer, but would also allow for sophisticated new techniques.  

- The same model could be used for images and video. Moreover, it could be used for media presentation layers (e.g., broadcast, and interactive media) and knowledge-based systems that are unheard of today.

jrsforums

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #355 on: December 20, 2013, 06:33:23 PM »

The cost would certainly be high for a ground-up redesign, but the benefits would be considerable as well.

There is a phase in which to involve photographers in the process.  Best is to lay the architectural groundwork that would support most any consideration that a photographer (or designer artist, or, or ...) would want.  The usability part of the problem, believe it or not, isn't the hard part.  

Besides, if you ask users prematurely what they want, what you end up with is something like "give me what I already know PLUS-or-MINUS something" which leads to an ad hoc death spiral.  

Let me give you an example of how it might work.

- Develop an architecture based upon a virtual machine (VM) with a nodal, dataflow architecture.  

- The (considerable) features and complexities of the VM can be /hidden or revealed/ in application layers as desired for different levels of users and suited for different purposes.

- The VM allows for a compatibility layer with the historical application where needed.

- The VM allows one to retain, where desired, all intermediate stages of the processing right down to the individual brush stroke, which may be modified in any way at any time.  The intermediate stages may be either baked-in or recomputed at will.  Sets of actions may be aggregated.

- The VM allows unlimited re-use of intermediate data in more than one stage of the processing.  This also allows for any number of derivative intermediates, which retain their dependencies on the original data in every sense, and may be themselves re-used.

- The VM provides all the abstractions needed for efficient concurrent processing without need for special cases.

- The VM allows for a very high-level, object-based scripting language, which in turns allows for sophisticated actions to be built up out of primitives.  Programs written in the scripting language may be shared at will.  The clear-cut semantics of the scripting language allow users to communicate in clear and unambiguous language about their techniques.  

- The application layers above the VM would allow for all the things that one does or can do now, including an outright compatibility layer, but would also allow for sophisticated new techniques.  

- The same model could be used for images and video. Moreover, it could be used for media presentation layers (e.g., broadcast, and interactive media) and knowledge-based systems that are unheard of today.

Good technical discussion...frankly, I am not qualified to appreciate.

The real problem is the cost/benefit.  What is the marketing case and sales "commitments" that will convince the "green eye shades" to commit budget.
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John

jrp

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #356 on: December 21, 2013, 09:49:07 AM »

What seems clear is that the world is moving to tablets. CPU power hungry imaging apps are likely to be the last real use for PCs within a decade. An application that takes advantage of the new hardware and need to be able to shift images around the internet, rather than being designed to print them is what is needed.  Adobe seems to get this but has a long way to go.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #357 on: December 21, 2013, 12:22:49 PM »

The cost would certainly be high for a ground-up redesign, but the benefits would be considerable as well.

There is a phase in which to involve photographers in the process.  Best is to lay the architectural groundwork that would support most any consideration that a photographer (or designer artist, or, or ...) would want.  The usability part of the problem, believe it or not, isn't the hard part.  

Besides, if you ask users prematurely what they want, what you end up with is something like "give me what I already know PLUS-or-MINUS something" which leads to an ad hoc death spiral.  

Let me give you an example of how it might work.

- Develop an architecture based upon a virtual machine (VM) with a nodal, dataflow architecture.  

- The (considerable) features and complexities of the VM can be /hidden or revealed/ in application layers as desired for different levels of users and suited for different purposes.

- The VM allows for a compatibility layer with the historical application where needed.

- The VM allows one to retain, where desired, all intermediate stages of the processing right down to the individual brush stroke, which may be modified in any way at any time.  The intermediate stages may be either baked-in or recomputed at will.  Sets of actions may be aggregated.

- The VM allows unlimited re-use of intermediate data in more than one stage of the processing.  This also allows for any number of derivative intermediates, which retain their dependencies on the original data in every sense, and may be themselves re-used.

- The VM provides all the abstractions needed for efficient concurrent processing without need for special cases.

- The VM allows for a very high-level, object-based scripting language, which in turns allows for sophisticated actions to be built up out of primitives.  Programs written in the scripting language may be shared at will.  The clear-cut semantics of the scripting language allow users to communicate in clear and unambiguous language about their techniques.  

- The application layers above the VM would allow for all the things that one does or can do now, including an outright compatibility layer, but would also allow for sophisticated new techniques.  

- The same model could be used for images and video. Moreover, it could be used for media presentation layers (e.g., broadcast, and interactive media) and knowledge-based systems that are unheard of today.
That sounds almost like Java!
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Some Guy

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #358 on: December 21, 2013, 12:43:29 PM »

What seems clear is that the world is moving to tablets. CPU power hungry imaging apps are likely to be the last real use for PCs within a decade. An application that takes advantage of the new hardware and need to be able to shift images around the internet, rather than being designed to print them is what is needed.  Adobe seems to get this but has a long way to go.

That (tablets) and cell phone camera shooters as well.

I don't know if Adobe is planning on going that route as many others are jumping to that ship.  I cannot see the cell crowd paying too much for their cellphone photo apps since they dump their hardware every year or two for something totally new.  Adobe doesn't seem to innovate that quick.  Adobe may stick with the computer crowd as serious retouchers/editors as their software has become very bloated compared to some new programmers who write small and tight code for phone apps, but how it plays out in the future may be very questionable for them.  They could go the way of Polaroid, Agfa film, and Kodak; that or buy up some apps already created and call them their own.  Maybe go the way of Autodesk and charge $4,500 for AutoCAD 2015 along with some security USB dongle needed too and payable with an AutoDesk VISA card (jk.  ;) )

Aside, if they do alter PS too much, people will get irate as they do with any OS change as "They sure screwed that up!"  MS cannot do a total makeover of their OS without people complaining: "It's so much harder to learn or figure out.  I'm going back to Windows 7, or Vista."  Apple has the same issues as "This new Mac Colorsync 10.9 sure has screwed up my printing" - aside from all the hardware driver upgrades needed for that mess.

SG
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jrsforums

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #359 on: December 21, 2013, 02:06:22 PM »

What seems clear is that the world is moving to tablets. CPU power hungry imaging apps are likely to be the last real use for PCs within a decade. An application that takes advantage of the new hardware and need to be able to shift images around the internet, rather than being designed to print them is what is needed.  Adobe seems to get this but has a long way to go.

Adobe. Is working on it.

Listen to Phoyofocus podcast with Brian Hughes
http://photofocus.com/2013/12/13/bryan-oneil-hughes-photoshop-senior-product-manager/
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John
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