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Author Topic: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...  (Read 119018 times)

datro

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #280 on: May 16, 2013, 09:59:01 PM »



Photoshop (in no particular order):


  • Perpetual licensing
  • Separation of ACR into its own product (so I could _just_ buy and update ACR--no Lightroom eye candy or fancy printing features, just standalone ACR that sends a rendered image to the editor of my choice or saves it out to a file)
  • No longer having ACR monopolize either your Bridge instance or your Photoshop instance
  • Ability to run batch actions in the background while working (or alternately, have more than one instance of PS)
  • Editable keyboard shortcuts
  • Savable preferences (and everything gets saved, down to where you want your scratch file stored)
  • Smart objects (and thus smart filters and smart transformations)
  • Transparency
  • Selection tools (unlike everyone else, I seem to have no problem with the various wands and lassos we already have)
  • Blend modes
  • Advanced brush options (what we already have)
  • A color picker that's not a total usability disaster (plus the ability to turn it off)
  • Pressure sensitivity/tablet integration
  • Advanced mask options (basically what we have now)
  • Transformations (skew, scale, warp, free transform)
  • Old style crop tool (or at least let the damed tool default to "active" instead of making us click the aspect ratio box every time)
  • Perspective correction
  • Lens corrections
  • High pass filter
  • Sharpening
  • Gaussian blur (and all the other blurs, I guess)
  • Noise reduction
  • Noise creation
  • Healing brushes/clone stamp/content aware versions of those tools
  • 16 and 32bit depth options
  • Stitching (plus the ability to save a stitch, including geometric corrections and apply it to more than one set of images)
  • HDR
  • Focus stacking
  • Adjustment layers (levels, curves, sat, b/w, etc.)
  • White balance adjustment layers (you can do it with hue/sat, but white balance would be more intuitive)
  • Actions (but with an easy way to change a step's parameters without having to actually perform the step)
  • History
  • CMYK
  • Type (the CS6 type engine is actually good enough for anyone who's not a designer, but a glyphs panel would be really, really, really, really nice)



Things I don't need:

  • 3D
  • Video
  • Vectors (aside from type, of course)
  • Liquify
  • Puppet Warp
  • Lens flare
  • Flick panning (seriously, who on earth thought it was good feature in the first place and why is it still here and enabled by default in CS6?)
  • Animated zoom


+1 Especially the "don't need" list.  I could also do without the editable keyboard shortcuts.

Dave
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s4e

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #281 on: May 17, 2013, 04:34:50 AM »

Tim, in short you need a compatible version of ACR to provide compatible renderings when using Lightroom's "Edit in Photoshop" feature.  That's because Lightroom actually uses the Camera Raw plug-in to render the image when opening that image into Photoshop.  (This is also the only case where Lightroom uses the ACR plug-in.  In all other cases when rendering pictures, Lightroom does the processing itself.) 

If you have Lightroom 4.4, for rendering compatibility with "Edit in Photoshop" you need Camera Raw 7.4.  That means you need CS6. 

This is one of many reasons we want an edit module in LR that use the same raw engine!
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Rick Popham

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #282 on: May 17, 2013, 07:22:52 AM »

There will really need to be a separate type Photoshop created that has a perpetual license update to it's Raw engine to avoid incompatibility with Lightroom.

That's my main point! Get it?

Isn't that what this whole thread is about?
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Oldfox

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #283 on: May 17, 2013, 09:21:12 AM »

I could also do without the editable keyboard shortcuts.
I "couldnt". There is no keyboard shortcut for Flatten Image. I changed Ctrl+F for that. Adobe uses it for Apply Last Filter. For every single psd-file I have, I use Flatten Image at some stage. I dont use filters very often, so for me the edit is very convenient.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #284 on: May 17, 2013, 09:59:26 AM »

I "couldnt". There is no keyboard shortcut for Flatten Image. I changed Ctrl+F for that. Adobe uses it for Apply Last Filter. For every single psd-file I have, I use Flatten Image at some stage. I dont use filters very often, so for me the edit is very convenient.

For Flatten Image I cretaed SHIFT COMMAND (Windows CTRL) comma. This works and sacrifices nothing.
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jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #285 on: May 17, 2013, 10:16:06 AM »

+1 Especially the "don't need" list.  I could also do without the editable keyboard shortcuts.

I "couldnt". There is no keyboard shortcut for Flatten Image. I changed Ctrl+F for that. Adobe uses it for Apply Last Filter. For every single psd-file I have, I use Flatten Image at some stage. I dont use filters very often, so for me the edit is very convenient.
In a nutshell this exchange sums up the entire thread.
Some people hate LR and love Bridge, others love LR and think Bridge is a waste of time.
Some people need certain features, other users think that completely different features are the mutt's nuts.
In other words there is very little consensus as to what is essential for photographers, even amongst the ones here on LuLa. Which on the whole I think would be fair to say is biased towards traditional photography which is only part of today's photography.

If you want a more pure photography programme LR already does the job extremely well [not that it couldn't be improved further]. Now if you want to do some bluesky thinking about a PS alternative that will attract photographers still using PS over LR, you need to consider that they use PS for a reason [or to be more precise hundreds of different reasons] so to attract them you may need to include an awful lot more than the stuff LR can do very well and in many ways a lot better.
I do all my basic grading work in LR these days as it's much quicker, easier and in many ways more powerful than using PS, though being able to use ACR as a filter in PS CC evens things up a bit. Currently I use PS for the more complex, less traditional in a sense photography work or as I saw it very nicely put once 'the fun stuff'. Which is probably the best way of using the programmes in my view and how I usually recommend using them when showing peeps workflows with PS/LR/Br.
Also I don't recall it being mentioned but the integration between PS and LR/PS and Br is is a very, very useful and powerful aspect of the programmes, particularly for professionals as it can save so much time. So if you want an viable alternative to PS - you need to think about BR + LR too.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #286 on: May 17, 2013, 11:02:01 AM »

Quote
PSCS5 accommodates ACR 6.7, which does have PV2012.

Mark, ACR 6.7 only allows selecting it but disables the tools that allow rendering with it. When I open a Raw with ACR 4.6 xmp sidecar edits into ACR 6.7 within PSCS5 Bridge and select PV2012 it tosses previous edits (at least from what I see in the Basic Panel). It does the same thing to PV2010 xmp sidecar edits except you can't see it in the preview depending on what PV2010 tools have changed AND USED from PV2010.

The thing about LR4.4 is that it gives you two places to "Automatically" save edits (NOT AVAILABLE IN CS3-CS5 BRIDGE) without actually selecting (ACR style) "Export Settings to XMP"-(a manual method available in LR) and those two places are the Catalog-(database) and XMP sidecar-selectable in LR "Catalog Settings" as automatic actions after quitting LR without saving (similar to iPhoto without duplicate jpeg place holders). Turning off (unchecking) "Automatically Write Changes To XMP" as a sidecar in LR "Catalog Settings" will stop the automatic overwrite in LR that showed up in my CS3 Bridge.

See here:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/lightroom/using/WS638E3AC9-A04C-4445-A0D3-F7D8BA5CDE37.html

Seeing how LR automatically saves whatever you do to catalog database even when you don't commit the edits to xmp sidecar like in Bridge and quit out of LR, I'm keeping an eye on how large that catalog is going to grow when experimenting with 3000 Raws.

It would be nice/desirable if this level of complexity between a parametric editor and pixel editor was reduced or eliminated for future upgrading between the two. A suggestion is one could be a companion app package (similar to Bridge/ACR/PS) that "AUTOMATICALLY" share the same Raw engine in all future upgrades.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 11:08:19 AM by tlooknbill »
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Oldfox

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #287 on: May 17, 2013, 12:42:54 PM »

For Flatten Image I cretaed SHIFT COMMAND (Windows CTRL) comma. This works and sacrifices nothing.
That's a good hint;-) I will change Shift+Ctrl+Comma into Apply Last Filter. So nothing is sacrified.
Btw, I also changed Ctrl+L and Ctrl+R into Image Rotation > 90° CW (and CCW). I had a scanning project where I had to rotate a lot images. Using keyboard shortcuts made the task a lot easier.

It seems that the keyboard shortcuts come a long way. Levels and Curves have a shortcut but  Adjustment Layers none.

So editable keyboard shortcuts is good thing to have. You can personalize the program as you want.
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jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #288 on: May 17, 2013, 12:49:24 PM »

Btw, I also changed Ctrl+L and Ctrl+R into Image Rotation > 90° CW (and CCW). I had a scanning project where I had to rotate a lot images. Using keyboard shortcuts made the task a lot easier.
Even easier is to rotate a batch of images in Bridge/Lightroom, your images will then open the right way up in PS.

Quote
So editable keyboard shortcuts is good thing to have. You can personalize the program as you want.
Being able to customise a programme is the single best way of minimising customers complaining about how things are done.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #289 on: May 17, 2013, 01:04:33 PM »

Levels and Curves have a shortcut but  Adjustment Layers none.


I applied the Levels and Curves shortcuts to the Levels and Curves Adjustment Layers, because there are no circumstances in which I would use Levels or Curves without them being on Adjustment Layers.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #290 on: May 18, 2013, 06:29:53 PM »

I "couldnt". There is no keyboard shortcut for Flatten Image. I changed Ctrl+F for that. Adobe uses it for Apply Last Filter. For every single psd-file I have, I use Flatten Image at some stage. I dont use filters very often, so for me the edit is very convenient.

There is already a shortcut for flatten image, I use it all the time, on the PC it's [Ctrl+shift+E] which flattens the whole stack down to a single layer and [Ctrl+E] merges down from the currently selected layer - so no need to reconfigure any shortcut keys  :)

Dave
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #291 on: May 18, 2013, 07:08:07 PM »

There is already a shortcut for flatten image, I use it all the time, on the PC it's [Ctrl+shift+E] which flattens the whole stack down to a single layer and [Ctrl+E] merges down from the currently selected layer - so no need to reconfigure any shortcut keys  :)

Dave

Control Shift E is Merge Visible. This is not necessarily the same thing as Flatten Image.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #292 on: May 18, 2013, 07:33:16 PM »

I would like a pretty full version of PS, but I could definitely live without the extended stuff or video or the pointless animated GUI etc. I really don't get on with LR (as some here may already know), because there just isn't enough individual pixel level control in there for me (yes I am also a control freak). So a cut down version of a photo editing tool that is more LR-centric than PS-centric, would definitely not be for me. So I don't know if this has already been suggested in this thread, as it is getting a little too long to browse through, but instead of asking Adobe to re-invent the wheel, which lets face it, they are not going to do, then would it not be easier for Adobe and for us who already know the product, for them to simply dig out and port the code from say CS3 (non extended), into the current 64 bit environment and then offer purchasable compatibility updates? Yes I know when I say easy, it is not in fact that easy, but it could be done and by a third party and on a fixed contract probably.

But even as I am writing this, I know none of this is ever going to happen, as to do something like this means Adobe would be cutting off its nose to spite its face, as quite a lot of its 12 million world wide customer base, would immediately buy into this much cheaper solution and so undermine Adobe’s current drive towards maximising its income stream from existing customers, right up until the pips squeak – although I recently read somewhere on the net, that apparently only around a quarter of a million have so far signed up to the CC, which works out at less than 3% if I have pressed the right buttons on my calculator, although this number might just be hype put out by the opposing camp I suppose.

But if something like this cut down version of PS or similar came to fruition and I am sure Jeff is totally the right guy to be pushing this idea for us all and straight into the ears of right people, then I would definitely buy into it, but as the old saying goes, I am not going to hold my breath.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 04:47:28 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #293 on: May 18, 2013, 07:40:03 PM »

Control Shift E is Merge Visible. This is not necessarily the same thing as Flatten Image.

Yes I know, but it does the same thing as flatten, only it doesn't turn the remaining layer into a background layer, which I only do right at the end of the whole process, with create new background from layer command - sorry if this is what you meant as I agree that no, it doesn't do that.

But there is still no need to change the standard shortcut keys, just record an 'action' to flatten the image and turn the remaining layer into a background layer and then assign keys to that action - I use Ctrl+F4 to do this, which works just fine and also leaves all my short cuts in tact and unchanged.

Just found this helpful short cut keyboard map - click here.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 09:20:53 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #294 on: May 19, 2013, 04:57:16 PM »

Just found this helpful short cut keyboard map - click here.

I love it!  Thanks.

jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #295 on: May 19, 2013, 05:20:55 PM »

Cntrl/Cmd+Shft+Alt+ e is one I use a lot. It makes a new layer using a flattened version of all the visible layers, without flattening document - very handy.

As for flattening documents, why do people do this? I always save the full layered PSD and if I ever need a flat version I simple export from LR or if in PS, I save as and merge layers.
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jjj

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #296 on: May 19, 2013, 05:31:26 PM »

Just found this helpful short cut keyboard map - click here.
Handy list, but misses one I use all the time Cmd/Cntrl + spacebar get [temp] zoom tool and if you add alt you get zoom out.
Another handy tip is  bypressing and holding a keyboard shortcut key, PS lets you temporarily switch to a tool. When you let go of the shortcut key, Photoshop returns to the tool you were using before the temporary switch.
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judymcintosh

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #297 on: May 21, 2013, 02:34:28 PM »

Tim, in short you need a compatible version of ACR to provide compatible renderings when using Lightroom's "Edit in Photoshop" feature.  That's because Lightroom actually uses the Camera Raw plug-in to render the image when opening that image into Photoshop.  (This is also the only case where Lightroom uses the ACR plug-in.  In all other cases when rendering pictures, Lightroom does the processing itself.) 

If you have Lightroom 4.4, for rendering compatibility with "Edit in Photoshop" you need Camera Raw 7.4.  That means you need CS6. 

For me this point ( which unless I've got it wrong seems to contradict the comments of others on the raw-rendering in the edit-in PS and indeed what I assumed the  Dialogue box suggests) is critical to going forward with development from a ( hobbyist) photographers perspective.
But first to back up, thanks greatly to Jeff for setting up a constructive and forward thinking thread. Whatever our personal ( for a few) and corporate views about adobe we are here discussing what we think we need in digital processing, so I am leaving my muddy shoes outside the door.
Personally I follow the 90:10 rule of using Lr(4.4) or CO7 resorting to Ps(cs5) for the minority. I am not in any way needing more of cs5 and content aware fill excepting of cs3 I had before ( relaxed upgrading), provided that my Raw rendering can follow any new camera files and ideally follow advances( and both adobe and captures current results do great things especially on my old 1ds files).
So in following this useful discussion I agree with the " wish list" but essentially it is what I already have in cs5 ( and a fraction of what it can do I appreciate) and what I have already paid for etc.
So I'm all for improving Lr with these functions perhaps avoiding any need to edit in ps or similar in future but I wonder if the real basic need is that future development of Lr should ensure that irrespective of versions of Ps ( or models of payment for it) that Lr renders the raw file not acr so that photographers who take their files to ps for edits do so without being locked into the time the latest ps version they have is.
 I suspect others may have grander vision for this, and I have to acknowledge that my wish list is probably limited by my experience ( with ps features to date) but frankly I see little reason to be on the upgrade treadmill for features I don't need.
I'm I too naive about this? I guess even if this isn't the case I can render in LRx as saved tiffs and then import to then redundant cs5 (in my case) without its version of acr involved edit up save to a edits folder and then point Lr at that. I do similar for CO7 so it may be even more " consistent" from a workflow approach.

Thanks also to Michael and Thomas, I'm sure you know that despite the vitriol most here are 90% on the same page, and that the opposite of love is grief not hate ( even though they sometimes look similar etc)... But that's for discussion outside this thread
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Schewe

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #298 on: May 22, 2013, 04:41:48 AM »

But first to back up, thanks greatly to Jeff for setting up a constructive and forward thinking thread. Whatever our personal ( for a few) and corporate views about adobe we are here discussing what we think we need in digital processing, so I am leaving my muddy shoes outside the door.

Yep...which was the main point of this thread...

Seems this thread was noticed by Thom Hogan...which was interesting...he said:

"To bad they didn't start this project before the hoopla about Creative Cloud set in. [Apparently Scott Kelby suggested something similar on one of his video sessions; plus apparently Jeff Schewe is now asking about something similar on Luminous-landscape discussion groups. I don't take any ownership in the idea itself; frankly, I thought it was an obvious development project when Lightroom first appeared.]"

Well...truth be told, the whole idea of a Lightroom Pro (that included pixel editing with parametric editing) didn't start with Adobe's announcement of Photoshop CC. It actually started when Mark Hamburg came to visit (and stay at the house for a couple of days) last year. The genesis for this thread started way before Adobe decided to drop CS7 perpetual...(and way before Scott made mention of the concept of LightShop on his Grid last week).

Lightroom is the only application in the Adobe portfolio that was really designed by and for photographers (you can read about the Shadowland development story here).

Actually, Lightroom's life was really uncertain for a long time at Adobe until Apple announced Aperture and Adobe decided to circle the wagons and go forward with Lightroom.

What isn't well known is that Mark Hamburg left Adobe after LR2 was released. He was head hunted by MSFT to work on Windows "usability" and moved from Santa Cruz to Woodinville, WA to work at MSFT. But, things degenerated at MSFT (for various reasons).

At some point, (when my wife and I visited Mark & family in Woodinville) the topic of his returning to Adobe came up...(he wasn't having any fun at MSFT). As things turned out, he decided to return back to Adobe where he drove the development of Adobe Revel (a non-pro soccer-mom photo app). He remained in WA and occasionally work from the Adobe Seattle office (the old Aldus offices).

So, fast foreword to now and all of a sudden the concept of a Photoshop "rebooted" is getting traction.

No, I don't know if it will go anywhere...but I do know there are some at Adobe that are not at all happy with what has transpired...so, the best I can say is we'll see. But the more feedback that we get, the better chance that something "interesting" may happen. Hopefully the concept will get some traction...(and not k=just because Thom or Scott Kelby mentioned it).

:~)
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judymcintosh

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Re: If Thomas designed a new Photoshop for photographers now...
« Reply #299 on: May 22, 2013, 05:37:30 AM »

Thanks Jeff. I understood from other comments you made that there was a "variety of opinion" and like you I hope constructive commentary can assist in development by whomever can take the lead...as in nature vacuums dont exist but transiently....
BTW can you clarify the ACR doing the rendering whenever LR "edits in PS" that Eric mentioned? I think it is a pretty important issue as I described and maybe from an underlying "architecture" of the way these applications integrate as well I naively wonder.
PS I meant to thank Eric and Thomas (but no slight to Michael for hosting the great site) Im new here and have only seen the 3 of you in your great videos.
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