And here we go again with this almost constant FUD aimed at dissuading people from buying and selling MFDB's privately.
Warranties on Phase One backs are transferable internationally. I have just had a very satisfactory service on an IQ180 that I bought privately - through Ebay, from half-way across the world. There are MANY instances of private offers that, if you apply some due diligence, are perfectly safe transactions to enter into, but that some regular forum commentators, dealers, and forum owners, seem very keen to dissuade from happening.
It's never direct. In fact, sometimes people will offer their support for the person doing the selling. But there is a constant drone of background FUD being sown in every single discussion on this forum and GetDPI when someone asks a question about either getting into MFDB, or buying and selling in the marketplace. Anyone visiting these forums potentially looking for a used back may well go to the "for sale" sections and go "ooh, that looks like good value", then read the general sections of the forums, and run a mile in fear.
I want to use my IQ180 purchase, plus evidence (from MF forums, not Ebay) of recent sales attempts, and trade-in offers to highlight what I believe is a totally distorted market.
Firstly, two recent "for sale" notices placed over at GetDPI for IQ180's.
(Case 1) Under 10k actuations. Less than 2 years old. More than 3 years left on a VAR. Offered for $23K. Dropped to $22.5K. Offer currently pending.
(Case 2) 1150 actuations. Again, less than 2 years old. Again, more than 3 years left on a VAR. Initially offered for $27.5K. Dropped to $22.5K. Sold
Now, my IQ180 purchase.
Bought through eBay a little over a year ago for $27.5K. Weigh that up against an offer at the time from the local dealer to purchase an ex-demo kit (including DF and 80mm), with 4 years remaining on a VAR, for roughly $41.5K.
Let me get this out of the way up front. I was very happy with the price I paid for my IQ180. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that it's probably depreciated by around $7.5K in the year that I've owned it. That is, it would appear to have depreciated that much were I to want to sell it privately now.
But is that actually a realistic, or shall I dare to use the word, "fair", valuation? Is it really "fair" that IQ180's with less than 2 years on the clock, and with 3 years worth of VAR left, are seemingly worth only 50% of what they originally cost if you want to sell privately?
Dealers, for reasons best known to themselves, seem to choose not to put a public price on their used IQ180's. But they do list prices of other used backs. Yes, I know - if I wanted to I could contact them and ask them. But I'm not in the market for a used IQ180. So I have no intention of asking, because presumably the figure would be provided in private, and I'd be asked not to share it.
So what's the closest I can find since I can't find an openly advertised price on a used IQ180 on a dealer's website?
$28K for an IQ160 with around 10,000 shots and a year's warranty. What price an IQ160 new? $31K
What about trade-in. What's the (list price) trade in value for an IQ180 against an IQ280? Well, list price of an IQ280 (no VAR) is $44K. Trade-up will cost you an additional $13K, so the trade in value would appear to be $31K.
Can someone please explain to me the following, because there is simply no way these facts could co-exist in an open market? There is nothing wrong with any one of them in and of itself. It's the combination of all of them that simply does not make sense.
1. If you attempt to sell an IQ180 privately, you'll lose 50% of the original value in depreciation over the first 2 years.
2. Trade-in an IQ180 for an upgrade to the 280, and you'll lose 30% against the original price you paid for it, and just 18% against the newly adjusted price (they are now $37K)
3. If you want to buy a used IQ160 from a dealer, that dealer will imply that the depreciation on the back is only around 10% of its value after 10,000 shots against the new price. Presumably, it is fair to assume then, that the dealer would look to sell a used IQ180 for around $33K.
An IQ180 is worth $31K against the purchase price of a new IQ280. From many comments on the forums, it would seem that there won't be a huge number of those upgrades going on. Some will be upgrading from IQ160's or P65's, sure. But surely there are some people out there who are buying IQ280's new?
The only reason I can come up with for people struggling to sell their IQ180's for even 70% of their trade-in value is because the market is totally distorted, and it's been totally distorted by the repeated FUD being liberally thrown around these forums.
Steve---don't waste your breath/time. There's also been an uptick in fraudulent auctions at Ebay, and the pricing tends to be one of the first revealing factors to consider---yet here Fred likes to quote Ebay as the gospel truth of the demise of medium format digital, and in OCD paternalistic fashion has taken it upon himself to save us all from the evils of medium format digital. I really don't see Ebay reflecting the worldwide medium format market. Really.
We all get that Fred had a bad experience (albeit very short and abbreviated experience) with Phase One and couldn't get that old P25+ to work for him. I really can't figure out why Phase One has the big target on their chest. Shouldn't it be Ebay that really deserves the brunt of Fred's constant bashing? I mean, c'mon, wasn't Ebay the seller there? Oh, wait, I forgot. Ebay isn't an authorized Phase One dealer that offers after sales support...