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Author Topic: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print  (Read 7544 times)

JRSmit

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I have a specific problem, i use a vendor provided icc profile for a matte paper, and in soft proof in LR the red colors specifically are shown as shifted towards magenta. They are also mainly out of paper gamut. However the actual print does not show this magenta shift. Of courdse the oog part lack the fine detail and small color nuances.
What is most likely cause of this magenta shift in the softproof? something wrong in the profile?
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PeterAit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2013, 09:04:03 AM »

The profile used for the SP is the same one used for the print. A problem with the profile itself would show up in both places, I think. Is your monitor calibrated? Do you get accurate SP-print matching with other profiles/papers?
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Peter
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2013, 09:10:48 AM »

A problem with the profile itself would show up in both places, I think.

Not necessarily Peter. I stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that for softproofing there is a reversed direction of the look-up feeding the information back to the display, using different tables. I'm wondering whether the OP faces the same issue using other profiles for other papers, or only this one. If the latter, it would suggest a profile problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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PeterAit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2013, 09:18:24 AM »

You are saying that there is only 1 profile file, but it contains different look up tables, one for the SP and one for printing? Interesting. In that case it could be a bad profile, I guess.
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Peter
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2013, 09:35:29 AM »

Yes, this is explained on page 229 of Andrew Rodney's book "Color Management for Photographers", in the "Sidebar". So the various tables are there, but whether that's the source of the problem I can't say for sure.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2013, 09:51:24 AM »

I have a specific problem, i use a vendor provided icc profile for a matte paper, and in soft proof in LR the red colors specifically are shown as shifted towards magenta. They are also mainly out of paper gamut. However the actual print does not show this magenta shift. Of courdse the oog part lack the fine detail and small color nuances.
What is most likely cause of this magenta shift in the softproof? something wrong in the profile?

ICC profiles have two tables. One affects the actual output, the other the soft proof. They should be in sync but that's not always the case. It could be OOG but I doubt it because by the time you're soft proofing, you should have affected OOG and further, it sounds like the output is OK? So where's the disconnect? IF this is only happening with this one profile, it's the profile, not your display calibration.
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Andrew Rodney
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jrsforums

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2013, 09:55:19 AM »

Based on conversations I have had with CD Tobie (Datacolor), there are different LUTs.

It could also be the color space of your monitor.  I have both sRGB and aRGB monitors on my system (separate video cards, so Win doesn't get confused).  They are both calibrated/profiled.  

Most of the time, both look the same.  Often, however, they do not.  In these cases, I know that parts of the image colors exceed the sRGB space.  I will then make sure that I make my decisions off the aRGB monitor. (I am embarrassed to admit that I was really frustrated trying to match the calibrations until I figured it out)
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John

madmanchan

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2013, 09:59:18 AM »

As Andrew and others have said, there are indeed two different LUTs typically in ICC output profiles (like print profiles), which ideally will be in sync but may not always be.  A reasonable test is to try a different profile from a different paper/vendor and see if the same disconnect occurs.
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JRSmit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2013, 03:11:03 PM »

Thanks for the responses thus far. Andrew, i should have also bought your book. I use the color management book of bruce fraser et al, but in there there is no explanation, at least for me, about which tables in the icc profile are used for softproof.
Also i use a regularely calibrated NEC PA271W (spectraview) , and double checking with profiles i used thusfar , they are not showing this disconnect between softproof vs print or between image and softproof (LR "Y" with softproof turned on)
I used ICC profile inspector to peek into the profile and found two differences: a/ the size of the forward (A2Bx) tables is less than half of a good profile; b/ the definition of the table(s) is different, see attached screenshots:

Looks like i need to have a chat with the vendor.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2013, 03:52:51 PM »

You may find it helpful to get ColorThink Pro for examining your profiles. I made the plunge and use it much more frequently than I ever expected. It's a great application.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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jrsforums

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2013, 04:59:03 PM »

You may find it helpful to get ColorThink Pro for examining your profiles. I made the plunge and use it much more frequently than I ever expected. It's a great application.

I have also found it worthwhile.  Does it show both LUTs?  I never found that.

John
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John

Mark D Segal

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2013, 05:10:32 PM »

John, I've only ever used it for examining scanner and printer profiles, not reverse look-up tables, so honestly I don't know; but I kind of doubt it. Perhaps the Chromix website would say something about that.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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JRSmit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2013, 04:10:37 PM »

You may find it helpful to get ColorThink Pro for examining your profiles. I made the plunge and use it much more frequently than I ever expected. It's a great application.
Mark, just "made the plunge" also. Will see how it can help me evaluate profiles, as i am experiencing problems that the docbees profilemanager does not show.
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Scott Martin

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 10:30:51 AM »

Sounds like one of the reasons pros make their own profiles! If you have an excellent profile made you can get right back to making great images and prints.

flaca

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 04:29:00 AM »

Hi, long time reader, first time writer here.

I have a similar issue so I thought I'd reply to this thread rather than starting a new one.

Warning - printer newbie so entirely possible this is a user SNAFU.

I've just bought an Epson R3000 and printed on a paper for which I have the correct profile. I'm using Lightroom 5 and a NEC PA271W calibrated using the dedicated NEC puck. I have done the following:

- enabled the profile in Lightroom so it's available
- selected the paper profile in Develop module, soft proofed with simulate printer/ink on and corrected the proof so that it matches the original - big difference (magenta shift again) between soft proof on and off
- selected the paper profile in the Print module, ensured I selected the Proof virtual copy, ensured the driver settings had the right paper type selected and that colour management was set to Off.
- Hit print

So what happens? The print comes out pretty much exactly as it looks on screen. To wit:
- an unadjusted image prints like the original shown on screen - great!
- an adjusted-for-soft-proofing image looks like the image with soft proofing turned off - so if, for a silly example, I needed to add +50 Whites to bring the proof in line with the original, then the print would look exactly like the original with +50 Whites applied (what you'd see with soft proofing off), not like the original (what you'd see with soft proofing on).

Probably an easy one, but what am I doing wrong?

I have not yet done the obvious and used a different paper and profile to see if the profile is duff.

All contributions welcome.

Cheers,
Scott
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PeterAit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 08:26:18 AM »

Have you made sure that you are not double-profiling? When you select the profile in the LR print module you must be sure that color management is off in the printer driver. If the profile is applied twice,
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Peter
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flaca

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 09:12:19 AM »

Thanks Peter, yes Colour Management in the printer driver is set to Off - definitely not set to any other setting.
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flaca

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2013, 01:07:50 PM »

Well, I'm saying "definitely" with such confidence, but there's always a (very good) chance that I have goofed. I've been racking my brains and re-checking my config and I believe that I've selected the correct profile in both Develop and Print module within Lightroom, checked Simulate Printer and Ink, and turned off Colour Management in the printer driver.

Are there any gotchas I should be looking for?

I did notice that if I set the print driver settings a certain way, then I re-look at them, they often seem to have changed, e.g. all of a sudden the printer driver will be using "Current Settings" rather than the saved preset I made and will have sRGB or something selected in Colour Management. I'm not sure if this is actually the case or just my perception. Is there a way (using Windows) to set the defaults in the printer driver?

Cheers,
Scott
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JRSmit

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2013, 01:45:39 PM »

I also use windows and you have to go through the panel of the printer setup to find the default settings. I am not at my computer so i cannot give you precise instructions. I also sa e segtinvs undef a na.e that relates to a particular paper. Makes the choice of settings during print jlbs easier.
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flaca

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Re: Softproof in LR does not correlate well with the actual print
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2013, 02:44:23 PM »

Thanks JRSmit, I'll look at that. I did actually try going through the Windows Control Panel but maybe I missed something. There could also be a big RTFM point here  :) I am usually quite good at that!

Anyhow, if anyone else has any suggestions for my wacky soft proofs then I'm all ears.

Thanks all for the help.

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