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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 114703 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #620 on: May 12, 2013, 01:26:13 PM »

Alan and Mark, that's a great idea! Let's add a Mac/Windows discussion to this thread! Can't get any hotter ;-)


Yes, I agree, throwing in a Mac-Windows pissing-match on top of a CC-perpetual license flap is exactly what we need to spice-up life on a rainy Sunday, but we're just about off to enjoy Mother's Day, so I'll pass on the opportunity to pursue the "Mother of All LULA Debates".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Gulag

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #621 on: May 12, 2013, 01:30:33 PM »

Very interesting: now here is one for you (and sorry if a bit OT - but a good opportunity). I have Windows 7 Professional already running as a VM under Parallels 8 in Mac OSX 10.6.8. So, any idea whether I could run Windows XP mode as a VM within the Windows 7 VM under Parallels on a Mac? :-) Whew.

In theory, that should work without any problems. But, the real catch is performance in that kind scenario, I would think. I haven't used MAC since left college in 80s and can't really answer your question specifically. 
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #622 on: May 12, 2013, 01:31:54 PM »

any idea whether I could run Windows XP mode as a VM within the Windows 7 VM under Parallels on a Mac?

I don't see why not. Make sure there's enough RAM to go around.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #623 on: May 12, 2013, 01:38:33 PM »

Thanks guys. I have the Windows capability on a Macbook Pro (used largely for my consulting work) that has 8GB of RAM, Intel Cor i7 (2 Core) 2.66 GHz processor and two SSDs, so it should be quite efficient.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #624 on: May 12, 2013, 01:41:46 PM »

And your Windows VM shouldn't need more than 512 or so megs of RAM anyway, despite what common sense tells you.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #625 on: May 12, 2013, 01:50:43 PM »

So unless there is some kind of incompatibility (I suppose one only knows for sure by trying), the hardware should be up to the task.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #626 on: May 12, 2013, 03:34:20 PM »

Quote
What happens when computer operating systems evolve such that CS6 becomes unusable legacy software? I already have software I use, which the developers will not update, that is compatible with Mac OSX 10.6.8 but not 10.7+. The provision for long-term access to our files needs to be more forward-looking than CS6.

That point's been bugging me ever since I started shooting Raw, the reason of which is to preserve non-destructive parametric edits on thousands of images the user owns on top of owning the parametric edits which represents the user's time and creative efforts.

The only solution is to come up with a computer specifically built for photographers with its own OS that doesn't need updating and whose hardware can be replaced with the same compatible components that will preserve and allow further processing on those saved parametric edits years on end.

I think it's safe to assume now that there isn't going to be much useful innovation in technology for photographers regarding Raw processing that requires constantly upgrading and updating to get the latest, greatest wizbang features unless they come up with a "Make my Raw image look glorious" button which I'm not holding my breath on that ever happening.

The current OS's are engineered to accommodate all types of users with all sorts of needs and workflows which most likely is the cause for constant updating and upgrading of hardware and software.
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CoyoteButtes

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #627 on: May 13, 2013, 04:43:25 AM »

Faustoshop?

Think about it. Do you want to subscribe to a service that, if you choose to stop the subscription at any time later in life, you will lose the capability to further edit those images with Photoshop? That is what I understand the terms of Adobe's new Creative Cloud to be.

After an introductory 12 month period, do you really want to be on the hook for $20.00 per month - the rate if you now own CS3 or later - for the rest of your life (plus increases at Adobe's discretion) to be able to edit your photo files?

I can see where this might be beneficial to graphics businesses that have multiple employees and using more CS applications than Photoshop. But individual photographers? Even we so-called "hobbyists"?

And what about third parties like authors, trainers, or organizations like National Association of Photoshop Professionals? I just cancelled my NAPP membership. If I stay with CS6 I don't need NAPP.

I'm thinking that Mephistopheles must be lurking the halls in Adobe's headquarters building.

Are you feeling tempted?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #628 on: May 13, 2013, 09:28:22 AM »



 I just cancelled my NAPP membership. If I stay with CS6 I don't need NAPP.

Are you feeling tempted?

I wouldn't cancel my NAPP membership because of this. I think the magazine alone is worth the ticket. Much creative and innovative stuff in it every month by some of the best in the industry. CS6 is a tool - what you do with it has infinite possibilities and a NAPP membership helps to keep the mind exercised. I say this with no other interest than being an ordinary NAPP member myself.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #629 on: May 13, 2013, 09:35:50 AM »

Do you want to subscribe to a service that, if you choose to stop the subscription at any time later in life, you will lose the capability to further edit those images with Photoshop?

That's absolutely incorrect! As long as you have a copy of Photoshop, ANY copy, you can open those images, you can edit those images. You may not like the lack of some editing functionality IN Photoshop you yourself caused by moving back a version (or more), but if you save the data with this in mind, you could open that image in Photoshop 1!

I've gone back and forth from CC to CS6 but you have to be smart about doing something that traditionally (moving backwards) has seemed unnecessary and to some, rather silly.

You can of course open and edit these images in hundreds of products, again you need to be smart about doing this (save as TIFF). Apple Preview easily opens even a CC PSD (without layers of course). But open and edit? Sure.
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Andrew Rodney
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BartvanderWolf

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #630 on: May 13, 2013, 10:37:28 AM »

I've gone back and forth from CC to CS6 but you have to be smart about doing something that traditionally (moving backwards) has seemed unnecessary and to some, rather silly.

Hi Andrew,

What happens when you have to fall back on CS6 in the middle of a project that depends on access to a new feature layer, because there is an issue with the subscription verification of your CC (could be as simple as no internet available at a somewhat remote location, or a moron severing the local fiber connection by digging in the wrong place, or something more malicious such as a DDOS attack crippling access to the verification servers)? What happens when Adobe increases the monthly subscription rate to an unacceptable level?

You wouldn't like to have a deadline that needs to be met when that happens, would you?

It's not always about being silly, or irrational, or to stingy, or temporarily broke because you have to pay to cure a life threatening disease ..., it's also about contingency planning and being prudent and prepared and not risking one's livelihood.

Do you still trust Adobe (enough) to even care about your well being?

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 10:46:11 AM by BartvanderWolf »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #631 on: May 13, 2013, 11:18:31 AM »

What happens when you have to fall back on CS6 in the middle of a project that depends on access to a new feature layer, because there is an issue with the subscription verification of your CC (could be as simple as no internet available at a somewhat remote location, or a moron severing the local fiber connection by digging in the wrong place, or something more malicious such as a DDOS attack crippling access to the verification servers)? What happens when Adobe increases the monthly subscription rate to an unacceptable level?
If you moved back to CS6 with new CC data like Round Rectangle layers SO's with CC only processing, and you open that TIFF or PSD, Photoshop will pop a dialog:

Quote
This document contains unknown data which will be discarded to keep layers editable. To preserve the original appearance instead, choose Flatten to load composite data as a flattened image.
You now have a number of options! The above two do allow you to open the documents despite the web filled with people saying you can't.

Quote
It's not always about being silly, or irrational, or to stingy, or temporarily broke because you have to pay to cure a life threatening disease ..., it's also about contingency planning and being prudent and prepared and not risking one's livelihood.
What happens if an Earthquake or meteor or bird flu shut down Adobe servers?
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #632 on: May 13, 2013, 11:27:07 AM »


What happens if an Earthquake or meteor or bird flu shut down Adobe servers?


In my line of business, when dealing with the contractual underpinnings of projects, we make a distinction between "Force Majeure Events"(FME)  and normal business risk. What you are talking about above is FME, and what Bart is talking about is normal business risk. The former by definition is beyond anyone's control, but the latter is controllable, can be shaped, and the risk can be mitigated by design and allocated. I don't think it makes sense to confuse these things. 
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #633 on: May 13, 2013, 11:35:14 AM »

In my line of business, when dealing with the contractual underpinnings of projects, we make a distinction between "Force Majeure Events"(FME)  and normal business risk. What you are talking about above is FME, and what Bart is talking about is normal business risk. The former by definition is beyond anyone's control, but the latter is controllable, can be shaped, and the risk can be mitigated by design and allocated. I don't think it makes sense to confuse these things.  

I don't think so (at least in the example of Bart's). If you are in a middle of a project, I would suspect Photoshop CC has phoned home as my understanding is it runs for a period of time without the need to activate (30 days? I need to check because I've heard other figures far higher).

There are two points here that are getting crossed. One is the idea that if you have CC, you can no longer move back and open the documents. That's simply untrue. Now in terms of Bart's scenario, if there's some issue in activation whereby it's going to take a dump on you in the middle of nowhere and you can't run it, that be a legitimate issue to hang on Adobe.

I've got software that cost more than the entire Creative Suite does and can't run without a dongle. I've got drawers full of Dongles too. Talk about a problem: being on location, needing the software and the dongle dies, goes missing, breaks etc. Nothing new.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #634 on: May 13, 2013, 11:48:00 AM »

I would suspect Photoshop CC has phoned home as my understanding is it runs for a period of time without the need to activate (30 days? I need to check because I've heard other figures far higher).

From Adobe FAQ:

Quote
You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days.  However, you'll be able to use products for 3 months (99 days) even if you're offline.
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Andrew Rodney
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nemophoto

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #635 on: May 13, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »

I'm sorry, as a Photoshop user since version 2.5 (1992) and every version since then, this is a HUGE slap in the face and F*CK YOU to the many people who made Adobe successful, especially pro photographers and designers. This ties you into a never ending round of "upgrade" on their timetable, not yours. As a photographer, I use Photoshop (CS6) and Lightroom regularly. I also use InDesign and Illustrator (version CS5), but nowhere nearly as frequently, and Dreamweaver CS4 once in a blue moon. Don't get me started on Acrobat (version 10) -- in many ways, THAT has been seriously screwed up since version 5, which to me had the best usability. (All mine are PC versions.)

Meanwhile, my wife is a graphic designer who works on a Mac. Her primary tool is InDesign (CS6), and to lesser degree, Illustrator and Photoshop (both CS5), as well as Acrobat 5 and 8. (She has always felt FreeHand was far superior to Illustrator, which Adobe bought to keep out competition.) For both of us, this forces us into upgrading ALL Adobe programs, regardless of use and priority and budget, and if we don't it renders what we have inoperable. I don't mean something like a TIFF can't be opened. But I mean InDesign files are held hostage, as well as Illustrator. NOT a good business model for the end user. A great revenue stream for Adobe. This forces us all into the upgrade treadmill and "renting" our software forever. I guess this is what come from lack of competition or standardizing on one series of software.

We saw this kind of arrogance with Quark. Eventually, it shot itself in the foot and is close to being a footnote. It is because we have all put too much faith in Adobe that they have now taken us hostage. I tried a test myself of what the future holds. I was beta user of Muse -- a relatively good little WYSIWYG web design program. Currently a lot of limitations, but I produced a decent web site with the initial version 1 release. I decided to go back  ayear later and see if I could edit the original design file. No go. Had to update the program. (Of course, in the "old days", it would not have mattered if I had version 1 still.) I decided to blow $180 and opt for the annual subscription. For the better part of the day, my system tried downloading the update and never completed. Finally, the next day, I succeeded. This is our future. As another footnote, the "backward compatibility" is crap. With each iteration of InDesign, for instance, the indd format as changed and IS NOT backward compatible. If you try to open a CS6 indd file with CS5, you will fail.

Issue #2: Download speeds and the arrogance of Silicon Valley. I'm a NYC based photographer. However, for reasons of personal lifestyle and quality of life, I choose to live in the hinterlands of PA (and previously, VA) -- not the hotbed of internet speed. On a good day, I'm looking at maybe 4Mb/s download. Silicon Valley seems to think everyone has 20Mb/s or higher. Hey, they do, doesn't everyone? (The US has one of the poorest ratings for national internet speeds of all the industrial nations of the world.) Just the 1GB of Photoshop takes the better part of a day -- hence why I go with a CD/DVD. (Because Apple has the same mentality, it takes my wife a day to download any new OS X.) Can you imagine the length of time required to update not one but two computers with: Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator, Acrobat and Muse on a regular basis?

I'm sorry, this is sheer and utter crap. I have no problem with businesses trying to make a profit. I do have a problem with businesses trying to hold my business hostage. And should I ever end up the in subscription model, I will NEVER entrust Adobe to hold my files in their Cloud. (Another absurd notion for them. Like I'd have the bandwidth and time to store hundred or thousands of gigbytes of images on some cloud server.) And I will seriously look for alternate programs where I can. (For anyone who want s a great Illustrator alternate, try Canvas. Ten times better a program, easier to use. Illustrator is simply a backup to that for me.)

One final thought. Note that Adobe has NOT made Lightroom subscription only. Can you guess why? I'll give you at least three big reasons: Apple Aperture, Capture One and DxO Optics. All very credible alternatives. I'm glad I work with the later two. Maybe I need to hone my skills better with those for the future.

Nemo  >:(
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 01:07:13 PM by nemophoto »
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Edhopkins

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #636 on: May 13, 2013, 01:18:35 PM »

Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?



ed
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #637 on: May 13, 2013, 01:30:01 PM »

Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?
That's correct, Ed, though it's hard to say whether it's something good about CC or just that they've stopped doing something pernicious.

nemophoto

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #638 on: May 13, 2013, 01:40:00 PM »

Hi Ed,

Yes, we DID pay for both versions. We have two totally separate business, mine being a full corporation (and has been since the early '80's in DC) and my wife is a sole proprietor. So, technically, we keep things separate. Now that said, I've already thought of screwing Adobe out of one user. I'd buy, say, Photoshop and Illustrator and share with my wife, while she'd buy InDesign and share with me. Then, when I'm on location, I have Photoshop loaded on my notebook and deactivate PS CC on my desktop.

Yes, all that works. The difference, is, I HATE being forced into a corner to use and buy software when someone else thinks I should, not when I feel it's the correct time. (And it still doesn't get me past slow download speeds.) And, have you actually looked at the model of all the different pricing that Adobe is offering on the programs? Figuring out my best financial plan on what to update and how made my head spin.

Just a quick technical question/note:

Didn't you have to pay for both a PC version and a Mac version of all those Adobe programs?

If you went to the CC version, wouldn't you just have to buy one version?   (I thought you could pay your monthly fee and down load either version--up to two copies. So you could have your mac version and you pc version.)

Would this save you a bundle or have I gotten confused?



ed
baltimore

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #639 on: May 13, 2013, 01:55:18 PM »

It does work on both platforms but you both can't use it at the same time on a single subscription, if I understand it correctly.

I think it's two activations per serial/license so you should be free to mix and match.
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Andrew Rodney
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