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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 117351 times)

Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #600 on: May 11, 2013, 03:12:00 PM »

Jeeesh, I really feel embarrassed by all the photographers who completely and totally misunderstand intellectual property and copyrights. You buy Photoshop? You don't own Photoshop, you own the right to use Photoshop for either a limited period of time or an unlimited period of time. Both transaction are the same principal. The only difference is with a subscription you lose the right to use after your subscription expires. With a perpetual license, it doesn't expire until such time as you no longer have a computer it will run on.

Jeff, this is not the case in the European Union.
See: http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf

In the EU we buy the software license we own it and can resell it.  In effect we own the software.  Another reason for Adobe to go down the subscription route ?

FUD, Jeff !?  Enough of it going around at the moment.

Blimey, Lula's on fire !
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #601 on: May 11, 2013, 03:21:10 PM »

Simon, I think even in the EU all you own is the right to use the software by virtue of your license, and to resell the use of the license. You don't own the intellectual property, and if you don't own the intellectual property you don't really own the software. Maybe this is all just semantics in terms of its end-effects, but nonetheless a real distinction.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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WaitingForAnR10

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #602 on: May 11, 2013, 04:16:00 PM »

Simon, I think even in the EU all you own is the right to use the software by virtue of your license, and to resell the use of the license. You don't own the intellectual property, and if you don't own the intellectual property you don't really own the software. Maybe this is all just semantics in terms of its end-effects, but nonetheless a real distinction.

Yes, it is a matter of semantics.  What the users are concerned about is the issue of a permanent license, versus a temporary license to use the software which is paid for by some kind of subscription.  End the subscription and you end your use of the program, with any of the functionality it provided.  In the previous model you could elect to not upgrade, but you still retained the use of the older software.  Now, you won't.

Despite any claims to the contrary, no one has been suggesting that the users owned the intellectual property contained in the product, its respective software code, or the right to copy and resell the product.  It's been strictly about use of that product by the licensee, although that may not always be clear from the posts.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 06:05:24 PM by WaitingForAnR10 »
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #603 on: May 11, 2013, 04:45:00 PM »

...I have been considering the nic package but now will definitely pass on it.   I would not buy photokit sharpener today.   I won't buy any plugins for a software that may not have a future for me.

I'm about 1/3 through reading this monster thread but wanted to comment on Joe's remarks.

You don't have to avoid plug-ins because of this situation. Many plug-ins also work with other (non-Adobe) hosts or, in the case of Topaz photoFXlab offer a standalone solution for running Topaz and some other third-party plug-ins. No image editor/host is required to apply, stack and edit effects. AKVIS also offers standalone versions of their plug-ins.
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Schewe

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #604 on: May 11, 2013, 06:01:52 PM »

In the EU we buy the software license we own it and can resell it.

In the EU (as in the US) you buy a license to use the software and you can resell that license. You own a license...that's a tangible part of intellectual property.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #605 on: May 11, 2013, 06:33:31 PM »

Yes, it is a matter of semantics.  What the users are concerned about is the issue of a permanent license, versus a temporary license to use the software which is paid for by some kind of subscription.  End the subscription and you end your use of the program, with any of the functionality it provided.  In the previous model you could elect to not upgrade, but you still retained the use of the older software.  Now, you won't.

Despite any claims to the contrary, no one has been suggesting that the users owned the intellectual property contained in the product, its respective software code, or the right to copy and resell the product.  It's been strictly about use of that product by the licensee, although that may not always be clear from the posts.


Yes I am totally aware of what users are concerned about - I said as much in several posts above and was the first person to recommend that users be offered an opportunity to own a perpetual license to the latest version they were using once they decide to not renew a subscription contract. See reply #435. Simon specifically said in the EU the users effectively own the software. The fact is they own a license to use the software. It does have the same end effect if all you do is use the software, but the users rights as an owner of a license and an owner of the software are very different. So it's semantics in some respects but not others.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #606 on: May 11, 2013, 07:50:37 PM »

Just wonderin..

If PS users break down into three main categories, as I think they generally do:

1 - Large corporations and multi license users, with constant upgrades to the latest versions across all platforms. Substantially the largest group size.

2 - Home/small business and amateur photographers with single user licenses, with upgrades when they can afford it. Unknown group size.

3 - Pirated/hacked illegal users of PS with no intention of ever buying a license, yet with almost immediate access to the latest versions across all platforms. Anyone who cares to Google to find the URL of a torrent/download website.

If Adobe has now changed its PS delivery and licensing method to cater more for the requirements of group 1, as this is the targeted market PS was always supposed to be aimed at, but in so doing was fully aware it would alienate a large proportion of group 2, which way does Adobe think group 2 will now migrate towards the next time they want to upgrade, group 1 or group 3?

I personally will not use a pirated copy of PS and will stick with what I've got, but I know a hell of a lot of photographers who were already struggling to afford being part of group 2.

OK, that's me out of this discussion now, as I think we are all wasting our energy re-analysing something that has already taken place, because we don't have a cat in hell's chance of changing the future direction of Adobe's licensing methods. What's done is done, we are all going to have to learn to live with it  :(

Dave
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 07:52:30 PM by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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daws

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #607 on: May 11, 2013, 08:37:53 PM »

If PS users break down into three main categories, as I think they generally do:

1 - Large corporations and multi license users, with constant upgrades to the latest versions across all platforms. Substantially the largest group size.

2 - Home/small business and amateur photographers with single user licenses, with upgrades when they can afford it. Unknown group size.

3 - Pirated/hacked illegal users of PS with no intention of ever buying a license, yet with almost immediate access to the latest versions across all platforms. Anyone who cares to Google to find the URL of a torrent/download website.

If Adobe has now changed its PS delivery and licensing method to cater more for the requirements of group 1, as this is the targeted market PS was always supposed to be aimed at, but in so doing was fully aware it would alienate a large proportion of group 2, which way does Adobe think group 2 will now migrate towards the next time they want to upgrade, group 1 or group 3?

I think the next five years will see Group 2 increasingly migrate to a new Group 4, composed of former longtime Photoshop users who use an ever-growing number of rapidly developing alternative applications. In even three years, the Photoshop-alternative landscape will look nothing like what we see today.



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DeanChriss

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #608 on: May 12, 2013, 11:37:09 AM »

What if the subscription software reverted to CS6 functionality when the subscription expires? That would take care of the proprietary Adobe file obsolescence problem as computer hardware and operating systems change. That seems to be what many, including myself, are upset about. You'd have to occasionally subscribe (frequency to be determined) for some period of time (number of months to be determined) in order to update your software, which seems perfectly fair. That subscription period would also give you a taste of the new features and tools available in the subscription version so you could determine if it's worthwhile. Seems like a good marketing feature for Adobe too. You wouldn't receive any new functionality if you don't continue the subscription, but assuming the total cost of the minimum subscription was reasonable that's also fair. A subscription model is fine if you don't hold everyone's previously created files hostage, and as I understand it that's exactly what Adobe plans to do at present.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #609 on: May 12, 2013, 11:43:17 AM »

What if the subscription software reverted to CS6 functionality when the subscription expires? That would take care of the proprietary Adobe file obsolescence problem as computer hardware and operating systems change.

What happens when computer operating systems evolve such that CS6 becomes unusable legacy software? I already have software I use, which the developers will not update, that is compatible with Mac OSX 10.6.8 but not 10.7+. The provision for long-term access to our files needs to be more forward-looking than CS6.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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DeanChriss

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #610 on: May 12, 2013, 12:06:57 PM »

What happens when computer operating systems evolve such that CS6 becomes unusable legacy software? I already have software I use, which the developers will not update, that is compatible with Mac OSX 10.6.8 but not 10.7+. The provision for long-term access to our files needs to be more forward-looking than CS6.

What I'm talking about here is the subscription software, that works on whatever the current hardware and operating systems are, and "dumbs down" to CS6 functionality, not CS6 itself. There are a several ways this could be done, including reverting to a separate "CS6" program that has OS/hardware updates only. Your subscription would get all of the latest functionality while the subscription was paid, and would revert to CS6 functionality, but with updates that would allow it to work on current systems when you stop paying. Essentially, what you paid during the subscription period would be the price of the "upgrade" for hardware and OS compatibility.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 12:11:28 PM by DeanChriss »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #611 on: May 12, 2013, 12:09:49 PM »

What happens when computer operating systems evolve such that CS6 becomes unusable legacy software? I already have software I use, which the developers will not update, that is compatible with Mac OSX 10.6.8 but not 10.7+. The provision for long-term access to our files needs to be more forward-looking than CS6.
Of course that's an Apple OS problem and not one for us Windows users! ;D
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #612 on: May 12, 2013, 12:11:38 PM »

I think the easier way of doing this is simply to provide users (either free or for a fee) a perpetual license to the most current Photoshop configuration they have on their computers at the end of a subscription contract should they elect to not renew it. I don't see Adobe going to a lot of trouble over more elaborate schemes. Clearly not the mindset - at least for now. Arguing them back to something reasonable needs to be the easiest, least-cost approach conceivable if it is to work.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #613 on: May 12, 2013, 12:13:51 PM »

Of course that's an Apple OS problem and not one for us Windows users! ;D

Cummon Alan - I used to use Windows also ya know. I have applications that are XP-compliant , not 7 or 8 compliant and the vendor won't upgrade them. I need to maintain an old Toshiba laptop to access them. Ugh. :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Gulag

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #614 on: May 12, 2013, 12:42:45 PM »

Cummon Alan - I used to use Windows also ya know. I have applications that are XP-compliant , not 7 or 8 compliant and the vendor won't upgrade them. I need to maintain an old Toshiba laptop to access them. Ugh. :-)

Microsoft provides Windows XP Virtual Machine free of charge for W7/8. I have been using a laser printer purchased in 1999, which only has Windows XP driver, without problems on my W7 box.
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #615 on: May 12, 2013, 12:47:25 PM »

Alan and Mark, that's a great idea! Let's add a Mac/Windows discussion to this thread! Can't get any hotter ;-)

I have my own thoughts about the unfortunate loss of legacy apps in OSX and the bloat needed to keep them going in Windows but I'll hold my tongue for now...

Gulag, what's the link for the MS VM?
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Gulag

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #616 on: May 12, 2013, 12:53:03 PM »

Gulag, what's the link for the MS VM?

Downloaded and installed it a few years back when I upgraded to W7. Here is a link that can work:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/install-and-use-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7
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plugsnpixels

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #617 on: May 12, 2013, 01:12:28 PM »

Thanks! I run 7 on my Mac as a VM and have one XP app I need to use occasionally (network management).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #618 on: May 12, 2013, 01:23:31 PM »

Downloaded and installed it a few years back when I upgraded to W7. Here is a link that can work:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows7/install-and-use-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7

Very interesting: now here is one for you (and sorry if a bit OT - but a good opportunity). I have Windows 7 Professional already running as a VM under Parallels 8 in Mac OSX 10.6.8. So, any idea whether I could run Windows XP mode as a VM within the Windows 7 VM under Parallels on a Mac? :-) Whew.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #619 on: May 12, 2013, 01:26:13 PM »

Alan and Mark, that's a great idea! Let's add a Mac/Windows discussion to this thread! Can't get any hotter ;-)


Yes, I agree, throwing in a Mac-Windows pissing-match on top of a CC-perpetual license flap is exactly what we need to spice-up life on a rainy Sunday, but we're just about off to enjoy Mother's Day, so I'll pass on the opportunity to pursue the "Mother of All LULA Debates".
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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