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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 188057 times)

davidh202

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #440 on: May 08, 2013, 08:53:18 pm »

Andrew,
To answer your "Specifically which layers would that be?" comment.

I recently had a situation where I needed to go back to a PSD I had worked on about a year and half ago in CS5, to edit some text in a  layer.
Photoshop promptly  advised me that the font was not on my system and would need to be replaced. Since I had never deleted any fonts I tried to edit the same file on my work computer... same error message.
Doing some research I found out that evidently the license for the font had been removed, and somewhere in a Microsoft update they deleted it from the font library.
Now I could have easily substituted the now missing font, but had this been a case where I had used the font in many files and needed to edit them also, I would have had a tedious task ahead of me.
I think this is the kind of scenario JanneAavasalo  is referring to in the case a layer was created using a no longer available feature "tool".
David
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kencameron

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #441 on: May 08, 2013, 08:55:36 pm »

And presumptuous.
In the circumstances, no. Your comment on the cartoon, and your subsequent comments, allow two alternatives - that you didn't get it, or that you were pretending not to get it. Familiarity with your previous LuLa posts (most of which I admire) still leaves me genuinely uncertain as to which might be the case, so I am not inclined to apologize for a polite explanation.

And I would add that while assuming you didn't get it might be presumptuous, assuming that you did and were pretending not to would, IMO, be positively insulting. Why would anyone interrupt a serious discussion with that kind of trollery?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2013, 09:53:12 pm by kencameron »
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Ken Cameron

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #442 on: May 08, 2013, 09:00:54 pm »

Andrew,
To answer your "Specifically which layers would that be?" comment.

You didn't, you referred to a loss of a system file that all applications need.  I can't build a text layer without a font you may have. It wasn't due to the layer, version of layering technology in differing builds, etc.

It's like saying you can't convert to SWOP V2 in Photoshop using an ICC profile Adobe installed, because you lost all the profiles on your system. Then blame Adobe's software for not having access to a profile. Neither would any other ICC aware application.
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jrsforums

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #443 on: May 08, 2013, 09:38:20 pm »

OK, Andrew.  Here are some new PS-CC features:
  • Camera Shake Reduction
  • All-new Smart Sharpen
  • Editable Rounded Rectangles
  • ACR as a filter

Say I use these in a non-destructive manner, say in a Smart Object.

At some point in the future, for whatever reason, I want to open the layer TIFF in PS-CS6.  What happens?  Can I adjust/modify the settings of the layers using these, such as change the rounded rectangle or adjust sharpening, etc?

It is not that I want to do this.  I really have no problem with the CC rental strategy.  I just want to protect myself.

Adobe could go out of business....or change their strategy and find photography products not profitable enough, so they stop investing or discontinue PS. (basically a Kodak scenario).  The price could go out of sight or circumstances could change where I could no longer afford to pay the monthly fee.  Lots of possibilities we cannot imagine right now.

Don't you think we have the right....in fact the need and the responsibility to protect our image work efforts?
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John

Vladimirovich

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #444 on: May 08, 2013, 09:46:03 pm »

Lots of possibilities we cannot imagine right now.
well, you shall know that here it is OK to imagine various fears about proprietary raw files and it is NOT OK to imagine the same about anything Adobe's...
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #445 on: May 08, 2013, 09:51:15 pm »

OK, Andrew.  Here are some new PS-CC features:
  • Camera Shake Reduction
  • All-new Smart Sharpen
  • Editable Rounded Rectangles
  • ACR as a filter


Yes and which of them will not be backwards compatible with CS6 after you apply the edits?

One CAN apply the new Shake Reduction on a layer, save that and open it in CS6. The new filter creates new edited pixels that end up on a layer, that layer is no different in CC than CS6. The same is true for Smart Sharpen or ACR as a filter.

Quote
At some point in the future, for whatever reason, I want to open the layer TIFF in PS-CS6.  What happens?  Can I adjust/modify the settings of the layers using these, such as change the rounded rectangle or adjust sharpening, etc?

In an older version, nope. The functionality doesn't exist. Editable Rounded Rectangles, so what?  Just like Layers today can't be used in Photoshop 2.0!

If you want new functionality you want new functionality and expecting to be able to re-edit the data in a older version of software that doesn't support new functionality is kind of par for the course.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #446 on: May 08, 2013, 09:59:31 pm »

well, you shall know that here it is OK to imagine various fears about proprietary raw files and it is NOT OK to imagine the same about anything Adobe's...

Of course, we all know that the world is divided between the good guys and the others. The good guys are, by definition, good and can therefore not do anything evil.

By a strange coincidence, there is usually a very high correlation between the group of good guys and "us", whoever "us" is.  ;)

It is often painful, if not impossible, to come to realize that the good guys are in fact not as good as we thought.

Cheers,
Bernard

jrsforums

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #447 on: May 08, 2013, 10:00:34 pm »

well, you shall know that here it is OK to imagine various fears about proprietary raw files and it is NOT OK to imagine the same about anything Adobe's...

Thanks for the poke.   ;D
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John

Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #448 on: May 08, 2013, 10:02:33 pm »

Specifically which layers would that be?

Specifically which layers are not compatible with CS what?

Kind of your fault for: buying into something new and hopefully useful and billable, then deciding it wasn't that cool so it goes away, then asking why you can't go back because you didn't handle your options with much wiggle room. It's OK to paint yourself into corners from time to time <g>.

IF you get this far in your story, you decide maybe, those features you thought were cool and paid for, are still cool and the alternative is to stop processing files, so you'll just pay the fee to Adobe and move on.

I think that's the right answer for you! Don't upgrade. Stick with CS6 which at some time in the future may die and you're forced to do..... All those years without the cool new features?

You're right, not subscribing to CC is definitely the right answer for me, but all in all I think it's still a valid point.

There were already a few examples of layer adjustments that won't register when you try to open the file in an older version of PS and I really can't believe that they will keep CS6 in sync with the future versions in CC feature-wise. Like I said, this isn't an issue yet, but as Adobe adds features in the future to the CC releases, they by all probability won't work correctly even with the last CS version (6). I'd like to think ahead for say 4 years here.

Quote
The issue is this: you subscribe to CC. They introduce new features with new code that work fine on the current CC version. So let us say you use those new features on a file and they create new adjustment layers, or you use new layers for them. You decide at the end of your contract to de-subscribe. You have your files alright, but you are only left with legacy CS6 to open them. If CS6 doesn't have the code that enabled the new features you used on that file while you were subscribed, those edits likely won't be accessible in CS6 which is all you are left with (if you had it to begin with - people starting fresh won't even have that). So if you think at some point you may jump off the train, you need to at least create a version of the file that merges all the layers created with new CC code into the background layer. By doing so you lose the non-destructive reversible workflow approach with respect to those things you did in CC that may not be recognizable in CS6. You can avoid this inconvenience only by either staying aboard the train or merging nonCS6-compliant edits into the background if you ever think you will jump off the train. So people feel "chained".

Mark put it so clearly here, that I'm quoting him rather than trying to re-write what he wrote.

For painting oneself to a corner, are there much options? Adobe wiped out those options with one swift move by forcing the CC subscription system.

And sometimes things are not that black & white as where "one just decides that it wasn't cool". First of all, not all Adobe users are pros who sell their work or sell their work only occasionally. I'm in the latter group and really don't make much money with photography, so yes, I'd like the chance to skip over versions and decide for myself when to update (and when I have sufficient funds to do so). So maybe I don't think that something is "billable", but I'd like to keep with the times still. As a non-pro photographer the software doesn't have a ROI for me, it's pretty much just an expense, plain and simple (well ROI = continuing my hobby and selling the occasional print). This brings me to the point of increased cost of the subscription model compared to the old upgrade path if I only need PS. Don't get me wrong, the cost is still doable with a steady income even for the hobbyist. But like I said, life isn't always that B&W, for example I'm unemployed at the moment, so cutting down costs is a necessity and I think the CC subscription would be the first to go. Also I don't believe for one second that the price will remain the same as years go by, so this alone could go over the pain threshold (this is speculation based on the way things are developing in the world).

So you're forced to fall back on what ever version it was before CC or worse yet, you were a new customer, so you have absolutely nothing. This would get even worse if LR would go to subscription model only, but hopefully you'll catch my point here. The files themselves are not going anywhere and you can still work on them with whatever you choose, but all the time maintaining your catalog, key wording, developing and doing edits in PS would be locked until you can once again afford the subscription.

I know the new model is really great for some people. Especially for those who use multiple applications in the suite and of course for pros who can easily cover the expense on a monthly and yearly basis and deduct the costs from taxes (don't know if that's the right way to say it, but again, hopefully the message comes through).

I'd say the bottom line at least for me is that I really don't like the idea of Adobe billing my account for a certain amount of money every month till the "end of days", which will pretty soon amount to a sizable sum and if for some reason I can't make that payment anymore, they "hold the hours and hours of work I've put in" for ransom. Mind you, not the files themselves, but the work I've put into them.

Disclaimer: there might be something incomprehensible in the text above since I should've been in bed several hours ago. So I'll apologize beforehand :)
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jrsforums

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #449 on: May 08, 2013, 10:07:05 pm »



Yes and which of them will not be backwards compatible with CS6 after you apply the edits?

One CAN apply the new Shake Reduction on a layer, save that and open it in CS6. The new filter creates new edited pixels that end up on a layer, that layer is no different in CC than CS6. The same is true for Smart Sharpen or ACR as a filter.

In an older version, nope. The functionality doesn't exist. Editable Rounded Rectangles, so what?  Just like Layers today can't be used in Photoshop 2.0!

If you want new functionality you want new functionality and expecting to be able to re-edit the data in a older version of software that doesn't support new functionality is kind of par for the course.

Did you not read my entire post?

Why selective responses just to poke holes, but not have a complete dialog.

Please respond and give your views on what you conveniently left out

Quote
It is not that I want to do this (use old version of CS6).  I really have no problem with the CC rental strategy.  I just want to protect myself.

Adobe could go out of business....or change their strategy and find photography products not profitable enough, so they stop investing or discontinue PS. (basically a Kodak scenario).  The price could go out of sight or circumstances could change where I could no longer afford to pay the monthly fee.  Lots of possibilities we cannot imagine right now.

Don't you think we have the right....in fact the need and the responsibility to protect our image work efforts?
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John

Janne Aavasalo

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #450 on: May 08, 2013, 10:12:35 pm »

If you want new functionality you want new functionality and expecting to be able to re-edit the data in a older version of software that doesn't support new functionality is kind of par for the course.

This is what I'm after. In the old model there wouldn't be a huge "feature gap", but thinking ahead say 4-6 years there will be if you for some reason can't afford the subscription anymore.

In the old scheme one could keep the "gap" as small or wide as they saw fit.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #451 on: May 08, 2013, 11:59:29 pm »

I think the whole thing will turn into a great victory for traditional photography. With the predicted demise of Photoshop (for photographers), perhaps once again photographers will be photographers, not photoshoppographers, i.e., do it right the first time, in-camera.

This might also turn into a great victory for Ken Rockwell's mantra: shoot only jpeg, do it right in-camera, use Canon's Print button, forget about post-processing.

 ;)

bill t.

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #452 on: May 09, 2013, 12:21:10 am »

I think the whole thing will turn into a great victory for traditional photography. With the predicted demise of Photoshop (for photographers), perhaps once again photographers will be photographers, not photoshoppographers, i.e., do it right the first time, in-camera.

This might also turn into a great victory for Ken Rockwell's mantra: shoot only jpeg, do it right in-camera, use Canon's Print button, forget about post-processing.

We need to seriously look at Instagram again.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #453 on: May 09, 2013, 12:22:57 am »

I think the whole thing will turn into a great victory for traditional photography. With the predicted demise of Photoshop (for photographers), perhaps once again photographers will be photographers, not photoshoppographers, i.e., do it right the first time, in-camera.

This might also turn into a great victory for Ken Rockwell's mantra: shoot only jpeg, do it right in-camera, use Canon's Print button, forget about post-processing.

 ;)
Hmmm. Do you think KR owns a lot of Adobe stock?
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #454 on: May 09, 2013, 12:24:20 am »

perhaps once again photographers will be photographers, not photoshoppographers
nope, they rather turn into lightroomographers... in the sense that ACR/LR becoming more and more about postprocessing actually
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Bryan Conner

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #455 on: May 09, 2013, 12:28:34 am »

Of course the grassy knoll conspiracy folks will say this is just around the corner.

Are you referring to the grassy Thomas Knoll conspiracy folks? :D
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pfigen

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #456 on: May 09, 2013, 02:39:30 am »

All this and no one has really discussed the CC user agreement from Adobe. Read through some of these from Lloyd but pay close attention to the chapter regarding them wanting your birthday. If the whole idea of renting your software for eternity wasn't enough, then these terms and conditions will seal the deal.

http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130508_3-Adobe-Cloud.html
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jeremyrh

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #457 on: May 09, 2013, 03:18:13 am »

I for one expect CS6 to be my final version of Photoshop. I realize that Adobe don't care about losing my business, and in fact will probably be glad to be rid of an unworthy amateur customer like me.

Probably you (like me) didn't pass Jeff's competency test for PS ownership, so screw you.
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schaubild

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #458 on: May 09, 2013, 04:00:05 am »

Probably you (like me) didn't pass Jeff's competency test for PS ownership, so screw you.

Add another member to the club. I just remembered that we have an ignore function here, so enter "J.........." and at least this is resolved almost immediately   :)



Interesting for anybody?    http://corelblogs.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/corel-is-all-about-giving-users-choice/
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hjulenissen

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #459 on: May 09, 2013, 04:52:52 am »

I feel that they are responding and re-responding to questions without really making things clear.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/08/Adobe-photoshop-cc (Winston Hendrickson, VP of Creative Solutions)
"why we've taken the unusual steps of Tom Hogarty's appearance on The Grid [a Scott Kelby webisode] showing potential Lightroom CC features
...
We don't have plans to make Lightroom a subscription-only option but we do envision added functionality for CC members using Lightroom."

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/ ( Tom Hogarty)
"Q. Will there be a different version of Lightroom called Lightroom CC?
A. No.
Q. Will there be features of Lightroom 5 that are exclusive to Creative Cloud members?
A. No."

To me it sounds like internal divisions fighting over territory and the future of their products.

-h
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