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Author Topic: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions  (Read 117315 times)

ButchM

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #660 on: May 16, 2013, 02:21:47 PM »

That seems like an argument for ignoring uninformed speculation :-)

With the precedent that was set by Adobe last week ... it is neither speculation nor are we uninformed. The die has been cast. Regardless of any assurances that have been offered, Adobe has established they will do as they choose even if they indicated otherwise in the past.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:34:22 PM by ButchM »
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Colorwave

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #661 on: May 16, 2013, 02:34:39 PM »

Show me the uninformed speculation you attribute to them and I'll see what I think.

fa·ce·tious  [fuh-see-shuhs] 
adjective

1.  not meant to be taken seriously or literally: a facetious remark.

I was referencing the fact that Adobe's public faces tried to calm nerves when subscription software was first announced by assuring customers that Adobe was intent on providing a dual licensing strategy, and that what eventually became the CC model was only an option offered in the interest of serving certain customer's interests.  Pretty much what we are hearing now from Tom Hogarty regarding Lightroom.  Of course it is all couched and disclaimed behind the firewall of "not speaking in an official capacity."  I think all three guys are great people, BTW, but they do what they need to do to remain employed by a corporation that I no longer feel is great from the standpoint of customer respect and integrity.

caveat emptor  (ˈɛmptɔː)
 
the principle that the buyer must bear the risk for the quality of goods purchased unless they are covered by the seller's warranty
 
[Latin: let the buyer beware]



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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #662 on: May 16, 2013, 03:13:30 PM »

You seem to feel that Adobe Systems Incorporated made you some kind of promise -- please show me where they made that promise.
There is an expectation that results from the relationship people have enjoyed with Adobe for many years. You're merely splitting hairs, as well as being irritating.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #663 on: May 16, 2013, 03:35:03 PM »

You seem to feel that Adobe Systems Incorporated made you some kind of promise -- please show me where they made that promise.

Isaac,

You of all people, as the LuLa's Hairsplitter-in-Chief, should know that words have more than one meaning.

"Some kind of promise" is known as implicit promise.

jrp

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #664 on: May 16, 2013, 03:50:29 PM »

It's going to be interesting to see how this all pans out over the next year or two.

Current non-business PS CS6 users (including the photographers that are a bit more into processing their work, just as the darkroom aficionados did in the old days) will doubtless stick with CS6, particularly outside the USA.

Current Lightroom users will carry on down that track.  PS Elements users may also continue out of habit, but even they, and Lightroom users who don't need the full Monty, may find the attractions of the new google auto processing service hard to resist, as will phone / tablet photomakers:
http://www.stuckincustoms.com/2013/05/15/why-the-new-google-server-farm-could-displace-adobe-lightroom/#disqus_thread

This is not great from Adobe's perspective, as the flow of new serious photographers who graduate to Adobe products from simple tools seems likely to slow.
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john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #665 on: May 16, 2013, 04:01:16 PM »

The relationship has been that Adobe are free to offer or not-offer whatever products or services they think will work for them, and we're free to accept or decline what they offer.

Many have said that they regularly declined what Adobe offered.
Master of the bleedin' obvious, eh?

The relationship is not as limited as you pretend. In addition to the simple transaction, it includes other expectations, understandings, even emotions (not least those previously fostered by Adobe). It is perfectly reasonable that people express anger when Adobe changes the nature of the relationship, and it's asinine to pretend otherwise. Quit the trolling....
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 04:05:11 PM by johnbeardy »
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #666 on: May 16, 2013, 04:13:26 PM »

You seem to feel that Adobe Systems Incorporated made you some kind of promise -- please show me where they made that promise.

From your linked Adobe press release announcing CC in Oct. 2011.

"Pricing and Availability
Pricing details regarding Adobe Creative Cloud and its expanded capabilities around applications, services and community will be announced in November 2011. For more information, visit http://www.adobe.com/go/creativecloud. Adobe will continue to offer all its creative products as standalone offerings, including Adobe Creative Suite editions and flagship individual products such as Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign and Dreamweaver."

I'm not exactly sure where you came up with the term promise in reference to my comments ... but there was indeed the expectation that there would be a continuation of perpetual licensing options for future version releases of CS products ... Hence my references to my diminished level of trust in any statements they may make today, could be seriously considered as information that can stand the test of time in making future plans for anyone who uses their tools in a business environment.

I agree that Adobe is free to do as they wish ... I also agree each individual user has to come to their own conclusion as how to move forward ... I was merely pointing out that in the past, that decision was much easier to reach ... Unfortunately Adobe has chosen to make such decisions much more complicated than in the past ... If you can't grasp that concept ... not my problem.
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Colorwave

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #667 on: May 16, 2013, 04:15:08 PM »

Please show me where "Adobe's public faces..." etc because I now know your comments are "not meant to be taken seriously".

Isaac, you are obviously trolling and just trying to argue for the sake of sport now.  We both know that my facetious remark was playing along with the "uninformed speculation" remark by associating the words of Adobe project managers with that description.  I don't really have the time or energy to play along with your game right now to Google for specific citations, but can assure you that there were both implied and explicit promises made about the fact that Creative Cloud offerings were to be a complement, not replacement for the traditional licensing model.  A quick look at John Nack's blog comments will show many commenters taking him to task for Adobe's reneging on his earlier reassurances.  I really don't think that you are interested in this sort of detail, though, because you have appointed yourself as a knee jerk defender of the CC New World Order.  I see CC's value, but also have grave reservations about it as a single track approach for Adobe's future.  Unlike you, I see shades of gray and not a polarized black/white, us/them scenario.  Unfortunately, nuance doesn't make for as entertaining of a debate for some, it seems.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 04:18:16 PM by Colorwave »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #668 on: May 16, 2013, 04:18:32 PM »

 I don't really have the time or energy to play along with your game right now to Google for specific citations, but can assure you that there were both implied and explicit promises made about the fact that Creative Cloud offerings were to be a complement, not replacement for the traditional licensing model.

In any of the EULA's we may or may not have read and agreed to, is that specified? Or in any other agreement between Adobe and end users?
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Andrew Rodney
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Colorwave

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #669 on: May 16, 2013, 04:20:32 PM »

Legally, I'm sure not.  The lawyers always allow for wiggle room.  In every other respect, however, the opposite is true.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #670 on: May 16, 2013, 04:27:28 PM »

In any of the EULA's we may or may not have read and agreed to, is that specified? Or in any other agreement between Adobe and end users?

Andrew, typically, sea-changes in availability arrangements or pricing terms for FUTURE releases of software are not the kind of material covered in a current EULA corresponding with the current software. I haven't looked for any of this detail in my current EULA and I have no time to bother, but I would be mightily surprised, for example, to see anything in a CS6 EULA that would preclude Adobe from re-arranging how they handle CC beyond CS6. Any who has read the fine print, please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #671 on: May 16, 2013, 04:38:13 PM »

Please say what implicit promise you feel exists, and why you feel there is that implicit promise.

You've got to be kidding me! And not just me, I guess.

Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #672 on: May 16, 2013, 04:55:01 PM »

Please say what implicit promise you feel exists, and why you feel there is that implicit promise.

Isaac, while I told myself I wasn't going to respond to this foolishness, I've changed my mind and I'll do so - just once: when a major corporation has been doing business with a huge clientele in a certain way for the past two decades, normal people would have a normal expectation of "basic" continuity for the fundamentals of the relationship and the business model; and the same normal people would be amenable to change if it were handled in a competent, non-threatening manner that provides adequate transitions and fall-backs. It doesn't depend on the fine print of legal agreements, it doesn't depend on the rights guaranteed in the constitution about how companies are allowed to do business, it is about the trust and confidence created over a long period of time, and then wrecked in one fell-swoop by an unexpected sea-change in some of the most important aspects of the business practices that a great many people have been nurtured to depend on. If you can't understand that, your problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #673 on: May 16, 2013, 05:31:29 PM »

Keep calm and don't feed the trolls  ;D

Mark D Segal

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #674 on: May 16, 2013, 05:33:58 PM »

Keep calm and don't feed the trolls  ;D

Yes, Slobodan, you got it - reach a certain age and life's too short to sweat the small stuff. :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #675 on: May 16, 2013, 06:00:26 PM »

When all you've got is name-calling...

How strange that the Troll is always someone else ;-)

Why did YOU specifically find it necessary to respond to my rather general statement, itself a variation of the famous WWII British motto "keep calm and carry on," is beyond me  ;)

ButchM

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #676 on: May 16, 2013, 06:38:40 PM »

A tale comes to mind concerning footwear of an appropriate size and who may feel compelled to wear same.
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LKaven

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #677 on: May 16, 2013, 07:03:03 PM »

Isaac, I'm not sure what your purpose is. 

Is it to remind people that capitalism is cruel and indifferent and that vendors can and do routinely break social compacts?  Is your point that wishing things to be otherwise is futile?  I think we all get that. 

The process being acted out here is a matter of social and moral regulation through dialectic.  Adobe stepped on our collective feet here and through socially coordinated action, there will be some consequences for their behavior.  Adobe's squandering of goodwill is something that will likely bear consequences for Adobe, and should serve as an object lesson for industry to study in the future. 

In the best of circumstances, we will be able to identify a new vendor and place our collective support behind the development of new and more capable tools that will serve our needs, and a new approach to customer relations that will engender the kind of goodwill that we depend upon for our day-to-day business affairs. 

If you need further therapy in this area, I'd suggest Strawson's "Freedom and Resentment." 

john beardsworth

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #678 on: May 16, 2013, 07:21:02 PM »

When all you've got is name-calling...

How strange that the Troll is always someone else ;-)
I don't throw the word lightly, but you wear it well.

Colorwave

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Re: Adobe diverging Creative Cloud and Standard versions
« Reply #679 on: May 16, 2013, 11:35:34 PM »

Excellent summation, Luke.  I have no problem with the idea of debate, or with a spirited conversation, but when one party tries to dominate the dialogue with the same didactic response, repeated ad nauseam, it gets old fast.
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