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Author Topic: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)  (Read 55574 times)

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2013, 02:57:19 pm »

What software can decode it so that one can see, view, print, project the finished image that the photographer has saved for postarity.

Here's a list of products that offer some sort of DNG compatibility...as of Sept, 2010 (the most recent list).

And Dave Coffin's dcraw supports DNG (although the processing is a bit different than ACR/LR's because Dave uses different processing algorithms).

This is what Dave says his mission is: So here is my mission: Write and maintain an ANSI C program that decodes any raw image from any digital camera on any computer running any operating system.

That program is called dcraw (pronounced "dee-see-raw"), and it's become a standard tool within and without the Open Source world. It's small (about 9000 lines), portable (standard C libraries only), free (both "gratis" and "libre"), and when used skillfully, produces better quality output than the tools provided by the camera vendor.

And, since Dave supports DNG, dcraw is an open source, non-proprietary raw and DNG converter...

And yes, Dave has to struggle to decode new cameras just like the rest of the 3rd party processors. Caused, of course, by the lack of documented and non-proprietary raw files from the camera companies.
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #141 on: April 17, 2013, 03:02:55 pm »

Here's a list of products that offer some sort of DNG compatibility...as of Sept, 2010 (the most recent list).

And Dave Coffin's dcraw supports DNG (although the processing is a bit different than ACR/LR's because Dave uses different processing algorithms).

This is what Dave says his mission is: So here is my mission: Write and maintain an ANSI C program that decodes any raw image from any digital camera on any computer running any operating system.

That program is called dcraw (pronounced "dee-see-raw"), and it's become a standard tool within and without the Open Source world. It's small (about 9000 lines), portable (standard C libraries only), free (both "gratis" and "libre"), and when used skillfully, produces better quality output than the tools provided by the camera vendor.

And, since Dave supports DNG, dcraw is an open source, non-proprietary raw and DNG converter...

And yes, Dave has to struggle to decode new cameras just like the rest of the 3rd party processors. Caused, of course, by the lack of documented and non-proprietary raw files from the camera companies.


I guess I was not clear....

we are no longer talking about the RAW image.  We are talking about the, as you say, "finished" image.

As I understand it, except maybe for a relatively small jpeg (no even sure that is not of the original RAW), the "finished" image only exists as part of a series of instructions, which needs code to make it usable.  Without the proper code it is "locked".  What will "unlock" it so we can see the "finished" image?  Or is it I who do not understand?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 03:10:29 pm by jrsforums »
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John

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #142 on: April 17, 2013, 03:26:56 pm »

What will "unlock" it so we can see the "finished" image?

Any application that supports viewing embedded DNG Previews can see the the results (although not change them) such as:
ACDSee - Photo Manager
Photo Mechanic
Canto Cumulus
FastPictureViewer
FastStone - Image Viewer & Maxview
iView MediaPro (not sure about the status of the Phase One media tool)
Photodex - ProShow Producer
Photools - IMatch
Proshooters DigitalPro

Did you look at the list of products that offer some sort of DNG compatibility?

And that's even an old list...
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John Cothron

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #143 on: April 17, 2013, 03:44:38 pm »

Jeff, out of curiosity.. I suppose someone that has your DNG file can also open it and edit the file (as well as see your edits).  That condition exists now of course, but there isn't a method of "locking" it is there?...or in the proprietary RAWS either.
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #144 on: April 17, 2013, 04:03:02 pm »

Which is also why I find it particularly irritating when photographers defend the behavior of the camera companies.
indeed, I am particularly irritated that somebody who stands so pro DNG actively support those manufacturers by purchasing their cameras and participating in their workshops  ::)
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Vladimirovich

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #145 on: April 17, 2013, 04:07:41 pm »

That said, DNG becomes more and more useful as the format progress.
as an intermediate format in your workflow yes, by all means... it is not different from tiff or whatever... as an original in camera raw format - dream on... market share of DNG using companies is going down... Samsung dropped DNG, Ricoh purchased Pentax and both are dropping off radar behind with a surge or mirrorless cameras from the likes of olympus, panasonic, sony, fuji...
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #146 on: April 17, 2013, 04:08:46 pm »

we are no longer talking about the RAW image.  We are talking about the, as you say, "finished" image.

Of course it's a raw image. The parametric instructions (which ARE proprietary) is finished. An image still needs to be rendered from this raw.
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #147 on: April 17, 2013, 04:44:09 pm »

Any application that supports viewing embedded DNG Previews can see the the results (although not change them) such as:
ACDSee - Photo Manager
Photo Mechanic
Canto Cumulus
FastPictureViewer
FastStone - Image Viewer & Maxview
iView MediaPro (not sure about the status of the Phase One media tool)
Photodex - ProShow Producer
Photools - IMatch
Proshooters DigitalPro

Did you look at the list of products that offer some sort of DNG compatibility?

And that's even an old list...

What format and quality is the DNG preview?

Do these programs require/use the Adobe DNG codex?  Which, while free, is proprietary, is it not?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 04:54:50 pm by jrsforums »
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John

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #148 on: April 17, 2013, 04:49:52 pm »

Of course it's a raw image. The parametric instructions (which ARE proprietary) is finished. An image still needs to be rendered from this raw.

So, I don't understand...?

We go from one proprietary format, to another....that is, we need the proprietary program to see the "finished" art that was created.   

How does this fulfill the museum needs of "sustainability"?  Do the museums want just the RAWs, or the artist's finished work?
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Tony Jay

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #149 on: April 17, 2013, 04:53:56 pm »

as an intermediate format in your workflow yes, by all means... it is not different from tiff or whatever... as an original in camera raw format - dream on... market share of DNG using companies is going down... Samsung dropped DNG, Ricoh purchased Pentax and both are dropping off radar behind with a surge or mirrorless cameras from the likes of olympus, panasonic, sony, fuji...
That has precisely nothing to do with their adoption of DNG as their RAW format.
I am sorry but there is so much BS already out there.

As for your apparent criticism of Jeff - what camera exactly would you like him to use?

DNG would make a perfectly acceptable archival format.
It would make a perfectly acceptable RAW format.
However the industry could adopt another format as standard.
However most of the big camera manufacturers just refuse to acknowledge the chaos that the continual spawning of proprietary RAW formats has already caused and will continue to cause.

IMO the real argument is not about supporting or denigrating any particular company but rather about a sustainable open format RAW format verified by the ISO.
This will allow now orphaned RAW formats to be be converted to something usable before the ability to access them is lost. (Technically they are accessible but in practise for most people they are orphaned because the software required needs obselete hardware and OS's.)
It will also allow RAW images to be accessible right out of the camera by any software - third-party or otherwise - that is currently not the case.

Nuff said.

Tony Jay
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #150 on: April 17, 2013, 05:03:15 pm »

So, I don't understand...?

Correct.

Quote
We go from one proprietary format, to another....that is, we need the proprietary program to see the "finished" art that was created.   

The file format no. DNG isn't proprietary. The processing of the raw data, yes.

DNG or CR2, both raw data (well a DNG can also contain rendered data but that's moot here). One's proprietary one isn't. What you do what that data is a different story.
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John Cothron

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #151 on: April 17, 2013, 05:06:01 pm »


IMO the real argument is not about supporting or denigrating any particular company but rather about a sustainable open format RAW format verified by the ISO.
This will allow now orphaned RAW formats to be be converted to something usable before the ability to access them is lost. (Technically they are accessible but in practise for most people they are orphaned because the software required needs obselete hardware and OS's.)
It will also allow RAW images to be accessible right out of the camera by any software - third-party or otherwise - that is currently not the case.

Nuff said.

Tony Jay

That's pretty succinct and to the point.  Hard to argue with that regardless of what your personal opinions may be regarding "companies".
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #152 on: April 17, 2013, 05:27:08 pm »

Correct.

The file format no. DNG isn't proprietary. The processing of the raw data, yes.

DNG or CR2, both raw data (well a DNG can also contain rendered data but that's moot here). One's proprietary one isn't. What you do what that data is a different story.

So...DNG can be an open RAW standard, if accepted as an ISO standard and the Library of Congress Digital Format....neither of which has happened yet.

DNG, will not fulfill the museum digital format need of providing the middle and final stages of the artists work....at least not in an open, non-proprietary form.

Using Jeff's example that he uses DNG for his "finished" works, does not provide long term "sustainability", at least in terms of the preservation factors need, that being "migration to new formats, emulation of current software on future computers, or a hybrid approach."

BTW....as I am sure you are aware, "So, I don't understand...?" is a tongue-in-cheek figure of speech.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 05:28:39 pm by jrsforums »
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #153 on: April 17, 2013, 05:41:34 pm »

indeed, I am particularly irritated that somebody who stands so pro DNG actively support those manufacturers by purchasing their cameras and participating in their workshops  ::)

Yep...and I've had long talks over copious drinks about Phase One's resistance to DNG...but I find it's useful to work from within. I did help facilitate getting Phase One to supply lens data to get lens profiles in ACR/LR and encouragement to adapt the most recent DNG spec...
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #154 on: April 17, 2013, 05:43:25 pm »

Do these programs require/use the Adobe DNG codex?  Which, while free, is proprietary, is it not?

Ya know...if you are so curious, do your own homework to find out...I'm getting tired of spoon feeding knowledge to you.
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #155 on: April 17, 2013, 05:51:57 pm »

Using Jeff's example that he uses DNG for his "finished" works, does not provide long term "sustainability", at least in terms of the preservation factors need, that being "migration to new formats, emulation of current software on future computers, or a hybrid approach."

The only thing that may suffer long term "sustainability" are the settings...not the raw image data–which was the whole point of this friggin' debate. What you are still failing to grasp is the long term conservation and preservation of the RAW IMAGE DATA is at risk. As you've already said, you don't even want people to see your raw images...but plenty of areas of photography do need access to the original raw data which DNG facilitates...and here's the irony, over time, the original raw image data has improved with new raw image processors–which is something totally new for photography...film didn't get better with age, but raw image data can as algorithms are improved.

You keep circling the drain bud, but you ain't winning many converts (and I don't count Vlad as a convert, he's just a pain, although he knows far more about the subject that you do, prolly more than I do too).
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)p
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2013, 05:59:59 pm »

So...DNG can be an open RAW standard, if accepted as an ISO standard and the Library of Congress Digital Format....neither of which has happened yet.

It could be an open raw format without either. Be nice if (and when) it does become an accepted ISO standard.

Quote
DNG, will not fulfill the museum digital format need of providing the middle and final stages of the artists work....at least not in an open, non-proprietary form.

It could if you put a rendered version in there. DNG is just a very robust container. It holds lots of useful data.
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2013, 06:10:04 pm »

I guess that answers it....I just wanted confirmation, which you do not want to give.

The proprietary nature of Adobe's code, while understandable, kinda blows your argument of openness.  It also will probably mar its acceptability to the museums, as it does not provide the middle and final parts of the work of art.  Other digital formats will be need to provide those.
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #158 on: April 17, 2013, 06:22:37 pm »

I guess that answers it....I just wanted confirmation, which you do not want to give.

The proprietary nature of Adobe's code, while understandable, kinda blows your argument of openness.  It also will probably mar its acceptability to the museums, as it does not provide the middle and final parts of the work of art.  Other digital formats will be need to provide those.

What proprietary code? DNG isn't proprietary. How anyone edits that data is always proprietary. Vibrance +24 is only understood in Lightroom or ACR. IF Capture 1 or Raw Developer had a slider or setting called Vibrance, it's processing is proprietary and different.

You are confusing proprietary processing to proprietary data formats. Processing is always proprietary.
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #159 on: April 17, 2013, 06:24:41 pm »

I guess that answers it....I just wanted confirmation, which you do not want to give.

The proprietary nature of Adobe's code, while understandable, kinda blows your argument of openness.  It also will probably mar its acceptability to the museums, as it does not provide the middle and final parts of the work of art.  Other digital formats will be need to provide those.

You are confusing access to the original raw data to access to the image settings. The lack of access to ACR/LR processing does not invalidate, in any way, the usefulness of the long term preservation and conservation of the original raw data–which regardless of your point of view, is what is the most critical aspect of this issue. If you have access to the original raw image data you can always go back and re-render an image from the raw image and likely do so with better image quality because of improvements in raw processing. That is just work...it's the original raw data that is critical to maintain. Get it yet? It's all about the raw data...
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