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Author Topic: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)  (Read 55585 times)

jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2013, 07:46:15 pm »

The biggest problem that I see are photographers willing to let Nikon and Canon off the hook for the mess they've help create. Personally, I refuse to give them a pass...

So....you are boycotting Nikon and Canon products?

BTW....50-100 years from now, the least of our problems will be decoding the RAW format.  I submit that none of the storage products we currently used will work.  The images that survive in their current form will have needed special handling and preservation.  In my opinion, that negates your argument.

I must repeat, I am not against DNG.  I hope Adobe works out everything with the camera manufacturers.  If they don't...or if it takes time, I am not unhappy with where we are at the moment....but I tired of the continual harassment on the part of you and Andrew.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 07:58:12 pm by jrsforums »
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John

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2013, 08:20:19 pm »

I must repeat, I am not against DNG.  I hope Adobe works out everything with the camera manufacturers.  If they don't...or if it takes time, I am not unhappy with where we are at the moment....but I tired of the continual harassment on the part of you and Andrew.

And Andrew and I are tired of photographers giving Nikon and Canon a pass...so there ya go.

[/quote]The images that survive in their current form will have needed special handling and preservation.  In my opinion, that negates your argument.[/quote]

Again, reread the sustainability factors–the current wide variety of undocumented, proprietary raw files formats do indeed need special conservation and preservation because there are so many different formats and varieties and that adds to the risk that those files won't be accessable in 50-100 years. That is the problem noted in the problem of adoption:

Adoption refers to the degree to which the format is already used by the primary creators, disseminators, or users of information resources. This includes use as a master format, for delivery to end users, and as a means of interchange between systems. If a format is widely adopted, it is less likely to become obsolete rapidly, and tools for migration and emulation are more likely to emerge from industry without specific investment by archival institutions.

Clearly if there were a standard raw file format standard, the likelihood that those digital object would be easier to conserve & preserve.

Look, do you agree that the current behavior of Nikon and Canon are not in the best interest of the photographic community (and here I'm talking photographers, not camera companies)? How can you possibly think the current state of raw file formats is a good thing?
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digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2013, 08:35:54 pm »

So....you are boycotting Nikon and Canon products?

That would be stupid and non productive. Did you read what has already been written about the unnecessary extremes of boycotting (not buying) and simply recognizing the problems and being a vocal consumer? What part about "you are either the cause of the problem or the solution" doesn't make sense to you?

Why do you continue to ask but not reply to questions on this topic? Such as why would any photographer (assuming you are one, your info here is anonymous) wouldn’t want an open raw format or continuing support for DNG?  
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2013, 09:21:08 pm »

That would be stupid and non productive. Did you read what has already been written about the unnecessary extremes of boycotting (not buying) and simply recognizing the problems and being a vocal consumer? What part about "you are either the cause of the problem or the solution" doesn't make sense to you?

Then what the heck do you and Jeff mean by, "I refuse to give them (Nikon and Canon) a pass"

Quote
Why do you continue to ask but not reply to questions on this topic? Such as why would any photographer (assuming you are one, your info here is anonymous) wouldn’t want an open raw format or continuing support for DNG?  

DON'T YOU READ....??

"I must repeat, I am not against DNG.  I hope Adobe works out everything with the camera manufacturers.  If they don't...or if it takes time, I am not unhappy with where we are at the moment....but I tired of the continual harassment on the part of you and Andrew"
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John

digitaldog

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2013, 09:30:37 pm »

Then what the heck do you and Jeff mean by, "I refuse to give them (Nikon and Canon) a pass"

I'll spell it out, we intend to be vocal, call them out for the silliness of the political BS they are putting us through. It's the exact opposite of some (no names) who insist there isn't a problem (there is), that DNG or another open raw format isn't really useful and necessary (it is). It's called push back. If you spent as much time and energy assisting this industry needs as you do arguing that since you don't have a problem, other's don't, or just understanding (admitting) that proprietary data does no one any good, maybe collectively, our voices will be heard. But it appears you're not really that interested in the future of imaging.

Jeff and I have been in this industry pretty much since day one. And in many cases, being vocal has produced many benefits for us in doing so. What's the saying about the squeaky wheel?
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2013, 09:37:24 pm »

And Andrew and I are tired of photographers giving Nikon and Canon a pass...so there ya go.

The images that survive in their current form will have needed special handling and preservation.  In my opinion, that negates your argument.

Again, reread the sustainability factors–the current wide variety of undocumented, proprietary raw files formats do indeed need special conservation and preservation because there are so many different formats and varieties and that adds to the risk that those files won't be accessable in 50-100 years. That is the problem noted in the problem of adoption:

Adoption refers to the degree to which the format is already used by the primary creators, disseminators, or users of information resources. This includes use as a master format, for delivery to end users, and as a means of interchange between systems. If a format is widely adopted, it is less likely to become obsolete rapidly, and tools for migration and emulation are more likely to emerge from industry without specific investment by archival institutions.

Clearly if there were a standard raw file format standard, the likelihood that those digital object would be easier to conserve & preserve.

Look, do you agree that the current behavior of Nikon and Canon are not in the best interest of the photographic community (and here I'm talking photographers, not camera companies)? How can you possibly think the current state of raw file formats is a good thing?

Jeff....I really do not want my RAW files preserved for 50-100 years from now.  In fact, I usually do not want my RAW files seen.  ETTR does not make the best negatives, any more than Ansel Adams negatives represented what he expected to get out of them

The only thing I might want to preserve for "posterity" would be after I had optimized the image in post.  This would not be the RAW, but a 16 bit TIFF.  I think TIFF meets your sustainability factors.

I expect that my RAWs will be processable for the time I expect to need them...as should you, even though you are a bit younger.
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John

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2013, 09:44:00 pm »

Then what the heck do you and Jeff mean by, "I refuse to give them (Nikon and Canon) a pass"

DON'T YOU READ....??

"I must repeat, I am not against DNG.  I hope Adobe works out everything with the camera manufacturers.  If they don't...or if it takes time, I am not unhappy with where we are at the moment....but I tired of the continual harassment on the part of you and Andrew"

Not being against DNG isn't enough by far. Yes, I advocate for DNG because I know what the long term benefits would be to the industry, but is it ain't DNG, I'm ok with that too. Do you have anything better to suggest?

What I am against is the current situation of undocumented, proprietary raw file formats being spawned every quarter. I'm against photographers giving the likes of Nikon and Canon a pass for being responsible for this situation. And yes, I've been in the ears of Phase One as well. I'm still pissed that C1 7.x still hasn't updated the DNG support to the current version.

What I simply can't understand is the position of any photographer saying the current situation is "ok". If you understand what is at stake, there's now way that it's "ok" for Nikon and Canon to reject any raw file format standards...

So, are you a photographer? Do you care about the long term conservation and preservation of your images? Do you want your inheritors of your estate to be able to access your work in the future? Or does that not matter to you?

I ask because I'm really perplexed how any photographer not in the employ of Nikon or Canon could possibly think the way things are now is in any way, ok...
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2013, 09:47:25 pm »

I'll spell it out, we intend to be vocal, call them out for the silliness of the political BS they are putting us through. It's the exact opposite of some (no names) who insist there isn't a problem (there is), that DNG or another open raw format isn't really useful and necessary (it is). It's called push back. If you spent as much time and energy assisting this industry needs as you do arguing that since you don't have a problem, other's don't, or just understanding (admitting) that proprietary data does no one any good, maybe collectively, our voices will be heard. But it appears you're not really that interested in the future of imaging.

Jeff and I have been in this industry pretty much since day one. And in many cases, being vocal has produced many benefits for us in doing so. What's the saying about the squeaky wheel?

I think you need to find a new windmill Don Quixote....you are getting annoying.

Being in the industry since day one encompases a lot of people...some of them are decent respectful people.  That say nothng about whether or notyou and Jeff are experience or knowledgable. You have benefited with fair, but not exceptional products...primarily because you have beaten down other peoples views/opinons as you are trying to do here....but that is what business is all about, so I have no grudge about that and respect your abilities...just don't push me around....you don't like it, I don't like it...keep it peaceful and we can all have productive discussions
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John

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2013, 09:49:52 pm »

Jeff....I really do not want my RAW files preserved for 50-100 years from now.  In fact, I usually do not want my RAW files seen.  ETTR does not make the best negatives, any more than Ansel Adams negatives represented what he expected to get out of them

Wow, that's a short sighted point of view...but then you aren't a journalist recording history for posterity. Ok fine, you don't have to care about the long term conservation and preservation of today's raw digital captures...but can you at least quit arguing for the enemy against those who do care?
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2013, 09:56:32 pm »

Wow, that's a short sighted point of view...but then you aren't a journalist recording history for posterity. Ok fine, you don't have to care about the long term conservation and preservation of today's raw digital captures...but can you at least quit arguing for the enemy against those who do care?
Jeff, if you quote me, do not selectively quote me to meet your point of view.

What I said was:
"Jeff....I really do not want my RAW files preserved for 50-100 years from now.  In fact, I usually do not want my RAW files seen.  ETTR does not make the best negatives, any more than Ansel Adams negatives represented what he expected to get out of them

The only thing I might want to preserve for "posterity" would be after I had optimized the image in post.  This would not be the RAW, but a 16 bit TIFF.  I think TIFF meets your sustainability factors.

I expect that my RAWs will be processable for the time I expect to need them...as should you, even though you are a bit younger."

And no, I am not a photojournalist....but TIFF, or even jpeg, would suffice for them also.
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John

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2013, 10:13:52 pm »

And no, I am not a photojournalist....but TIFF, or even jpeg, would suffice for them also.

Yep, you aren't a photojournalist...if you were you would realize that the majority of newspapers and magazines now require photojournalists to supply raw files not rendered tiffs for anything non-editorial. It's a question of image provenance...and to keep photojournalists from over processing news content.

There are whole swatches of photographic disciplines that require the conservation and preservation of of the original raw image captures; industrial, scientific, biomedical, documentary, legal...it ain't just news bud. But to you, you don't care because, hey, you don't want people to see what your original looks like, you just want people to see what it looks like after you manipulated it, right?

Again, that is an incredibly narrow and self-serving view of photography...which is the root problem of your view that it's ok for Nikon and Canon to be cowboys and refuse to adopt standards. You just don't get it...this is about the best interests of photographers–all photographers, not just you.
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2013, 10:25:42 pm »

Yep, you aren't a photojournalist...if you were you would realize that the majority of newspapers and magazines now require photojournalists to supply raw files not rendered tiffs for anything non-editorial. It's a question of image provenance...and to keep photojournalists from over processing news content.

There are whole swatches of photographic disciplines that require the conservation and preservation of of the original raw image captures; industrial, scientific, biomedical, documentary, legal...it ain't just news bud. But to you, you don't care because, hey, you don't want people to see what your original looks like, you just want people to see what it looks like after you manipulated it, right?

Again, that is an incredibly narrow and self-serving view of photography...which is the root problem of your view that it's ok for Nikon and Canon to be cowboys and refuse to adopt standards. You just don't get it...this is about the best interests of photographers–all photographers, not just you.

Attack, Attack, Attack....never give any ground, you sound like the NRA.

We were talking, I think, about preservation of art for the future....50-100 years in the future.  Not forensic evidence for a near term trial.

Common, Jeff.  Stop muddying the waters.  Your bully approach may work on some....though I admit, I am getting weary as you have no new news to report...just the same old...the apocalypse is coming...ignore Nikon and Canon...oh, but don't stop buying their stuff.  
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 10:35:45 pm by jrsforums »
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John

jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2013, 10:33:23 pm »

it's ok for Nikon and Canon to be cowboys and refuse to adopt standards. You just don't get it...this is about the best interests of photographers–all photographers, not just you.

Nikon and Canon are not the "cowboys".  They and others led the industry with RAW capability.

Adobe is the change-maker.  Adobe may be right, but the world changes slowly....just as the ISO body takes it's sweet time.

When DNG becomes an ISO standard, let's revisit this.  You know that nothing is gonna happen before then.

Stop being an AH.
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John

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2013, 10:38:18 pm »

We were talk, I think, about preservation of art for the future....50-100 years in the future.  Not forensic evidence for a near term trial.

We were talking about long term conservation and preservation of digital photography....ALL photography, not just yours. This is in the best interest of society and humanity...I couldn't give a rat's ass about Nikon and Canon's stupid and arrogant point of view about their raw file formats.

Attack? Yes, I'm attacking an ill-informed, narrow minded, self-serving point of view that is not in the best interest of photographers. And no, I don't give ground on issues I strongly believe in...
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2013, 10:43:53 pm »

Nikon and Canon are not the "cowboys".  They and others led the industry with RAW capability.

Actually, it was Kodak...which which due to short-sighted and really stupid execs, essentially lost everything (and hence Kodak technology has been orphaned like Photo CD and the DCS cameras).

Nikon and Canon didn't "lead" the industry...they took what others had developed and ran with it...good for them.

However, that does come with a degree of civic duty...something Nikon and Canon have not shown. They should do the right thing and work towards adopting some much needed standards. And photographers that continue to give them a pass exacerbate the problem. (in case you were wondering that was directed at you dooode).
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Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2013, 10:46:54 pm »

Stop being an AH.

Really, that's the best ya got bud?

Do you really think I'm gonna stop?

Hey, here's a deal, I'll stop just as soon as you admit that the current situation regarding undocumented, proprietary raw files formats is bad for the photo industry. Deal?
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2013, 11:07:07 pm »

Really, that's the best ya got bud?

Do you really think I'm gonna stop?

Hey, here's a deal, I'll stop just as soon as you admit that the current situation regarding undocumented, proprietary raw files formats is bad for the photo industry. Deal?

Nope...but yer still an A....ahhh...overdoing it :-)

There are many ways to preserve the finished product, which is what I and many artists care about. (no, I am not claiming I am one, so bugger off)

I would like to think you re just an altruistic person who cares for all the artists in the world.  Your links to Adobe, long term and financial, kind of stain you a different color.
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John

Schewe

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2013, 11:10:39 pm »

Your links to Adobe, long term and financial, kind of stain you a different color.

Yeah, I'm a whore...I'm a shill for Adobe...I couldn't care less about fellow photographers (and everything I've done in my career proves that).

Look in the mirror bud...proud of yourself in this debate? You still think Nikon and Canon are the good guys? Really?
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jrsforums

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2013, 11:18:40 pm »

.

However, that does come with a degree of civic duty...something Nikon and Canon have not shown. They should do the right thing and work towards adopting some much needed standards. And photographers that continue to give them a pass exacerbate the problem. (in case you were wondering that was directed at you dooode).

Hey, Jeff....corporations are not altruistic.  I doubt Adobe developed DNG for altruism...even though it maybe.

BTW...I have no idea what you mean by give 'em a pass.  If you don't mean stop buying. what?  Do you want me to fly up to canon USA HQ on LI and picket them?  Because I don't agree with you I am giving them a pass?  Come on, Jeff...give it a break...NOTHING is going any further until the ISO committees  act...until then yer just being a PITA, which I know you live to do...and I don't mind tweeking you on...I do respect you none the less...no matter whether you have any respect for others view and opinons.
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wattsies

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Re: Lightroom 5 beta (news MIA)
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2013, 11:21:17 pm »

Now, now children...
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