Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab  (Read 1613 times)

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« on: April 03, 2013, 09:10:13 pm »

Tried something different reflecting some of the things I have picked up here in LuLa land. Duplicated the RAW file and merged in PS to HDR PRO (not sure this step was necessary). Perhaps I could have just opened the file with the LR edits and saved as a 32-bit tiff. Anyhow, edited in LR hopefully taking advantage of the 32-bit latitude. Note this is NOT an HDR image. Pushed the shadow recovery way up, toned the highlights way down, messed with the tint/sat/lum some trying not to go overboard. Added a GND to tone the sky down some more and brushed some local luminosity into the cliffs. Back to PS for high pass sharpening and didn't screw with anything else. Comments welcome as always.

Tony Jay

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2965
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2013, 02:37:14 am »

David the image looks quite good.
However, without the original image, I just don't have a reference.
I have read what you did but I need to see the differences - before and after.
This is something that I have been contemplating too but have not got around to yet.
Perhaps your efforts may sway me one way or the other.

Tony Jay
Logged

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 08:08:22 am »

I have read what you did but I need to see the differences - before and after.
Thanks, Tony. Picture's worth a thousand words, right? Here is what the original, zeroed out RAW file looks like.

Chris Calohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3512
  • Editing Allowed
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 09:19:42 am »

While I love what can be done with a RAW file, I have to wonder how much better the image could have been had you exposed it correctly from the outset. Just wondering. Have you tried this technique with images more properly exposed? It is an interesting idea and one worth exploring.
Logged
If it Ain't Broke, Leave it Alone; if it is Broke, Fix it; if it's a Maybe, Play With it - Who Knows

sdwilsonsct

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3296
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 09:28:35 am »

Lots of good elements here, David, like the sky and grass, but somehow it comes across as emotionally threatening instead of welcoming. Perhaps because the dark cliffs drive the eye to the black tree.
The processing is technically fine but I think that a different composition is needed, maybe one that focuses on the light on the grass. I might try lower, wider, closer to the tree, throwing the cliff into the far background.
My 2 cents...

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 09:54:15 am »

Chris-I understand your point. Matrix metering. Could have bracketed and tried ETTR, but my understanding is that will just reduce the noise at the darker end. Maybe I'm NOT getting your point! Are you talking about the 32-bit conversion that is interesting? Or something else?

Scott-Interesting take on the mood and how the composition might affect that. I like to shoot into the sun, don't ask me why, and I liked the backlighting on the grass along with the silhouette of the tree. There IS a harshness I see as I have studied the image, but don't know what to do with that or even if I can. Chris wanted me to post a pic from my trip to Moab, what can I say? I have 634 images left to screen! I have to retire!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 09:56:19 am by David Eckels »
Logged

Chris Calohan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3512
  • Editing Allowed
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 10:56:10 am »

If this process works so well on a "poorly" exposed image, how would it work on one exposed correctly in the camera?
Logged
If it Ain't Broke, Leave it Alone; if it is Broke, Fix it; if it's a Maybe, Play With it - Who Knows

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 11:00:22 am »

I agree with Chris, David. Any time you have to jump through hoops like these in post-processing it's time to go back and re-shoot -- assuming that's possible. One of the great things about digital is that if your subject is stationary and you're uncertain about the result, you can bracket everything. The only thing that approach costs is some time. The other great advantage of digital is the camera's LCD screen. There's a lot of BS out there about how you can't tell anything from the LCD, but as Joe McNally has pointed out, people who can't tell anything from their LCD's are people who haven't done enough digital shooting to understand what they're looking at.

You did a good job of looking. It's an appealing scene, and the backlight was right. How about taking another whack at it?

By the way, I'm not a fan of HDR because I see too many people with limited personal discipline making a joke out of it. But if you do it right on a scene like this you can end up with something that handles the whole dynamic range and that only a photographer who's done it can even suspect is HDR. Put the camera on a tripod, make sure you're in aperture priority and that the ISO is fixed, focus, and shoot a series of bracketed frames, (on my D3 or D800 I usually shoot a total of 9 frames, from 5 stops underexposed to 5 stops overexposed) and run them through Nik's (now Google's) HDR Efex Pro 2. With a bit of practice you can end up with a technically perfect result.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 01:56:05 pm »

I agree with Chris, David. Any time you have to jump through hoops like these in post-processing it's time to go back and re-shoot -- assuming that's possible. One of the great things about digital is that if your subject is stationary and you're uncertain about the result, you can bracket everything. The only thing that approach costs is some time. The other great advantage of digital is the camera's LCD screen. There's a lot of BS out there about how you can't tell anything from the LCD, but as Joe McNally has pointed out, people who can't tell anything from their LCD's are people who haven't done enough digital shooting to understand what they're looking at.

You did a good job of looking. It's an appealing scene, and the backlight was right. How about taking another whack at it?

By the way, I'm not a fan of HDR because I see too many people with limited personal discipline making a joke out of it. But if you do it right on a scene like this you can end up with something that handles the whole dynamic range and that only a photographer who's done it can even suspect is HDR. Put the camera on a tripod, make sure you're in aperture priority and that the ISO is fixed, focus, and shoot a series of bracketed frames, (on my D3 or D800 I usually shoot a total of 9 frames, from 5 stops underexposed to 5 stops overexposed) and run them through Nik's (now Google's) HDR Efex Pro 2. With a bit of practice you can end up with a technically perfect result.

So this is really a reply to Chris and Russ: When I look at the LCD, I look to the RGB histogram to check for blocked "blacks" and blown highlights. The image itself (or rather its facsimile) doesn't interest me. Now I understand ETTR I think, but what I am struggling with is whether my assumption that if it's "all" in the histogram, I shouldn't be throwing out any data. Have I got this wrong? But, if I am not wrong, then there's the esthetics of post and Russ, I fully understand your point about HDR done well and have used your technique in some of my other earlier HDR images. I have been learning here in LuLa land about exploiting the power of such an approach while trying to avoid being seduced by it. I am trying to learn subtlety! So, are you fellows addressing the technique or the post work? Either/both welcome, obviously. Sorry for being so dense! When I shoot into the sun, I often see what looks like an underexposed image, but as long as the histogram is on scale, I can grab those shadow details. All of my Nikon cameras seem to have behaved this way.

By the way, I tried to save a 32-bit tiff with a single image and could not; only with at least two HDR Pro merges do you get the 32-bit save option.

Slobodan Blagojevic

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18090
  • When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks
    • My website
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 02:51:24 pm »

... somehow it comes across as emotionally threatening instead of welcoming...

+1

Along my idea that once one conquers the HOW of post-processing, the most important thing becomes the WHY. We tend to get enamored with a technique, especially if new and popular, to the point that we forget why we are doing it. We bring out shadows (or details, or whatever) because we can, not because we should.

We also tend to apply tricks and techniques indiscriminately, across the image (hence my distaste for packaged solutions, the likes of Nik suite - they ultimately look like a canned laughter). Even when applied with a local brush, we tend to choose the wrong location: we open or block shadows where we shouldn't, esthetically speaking.

Btw, the above is not intended as a criticism aimed at David in particular... we've all been there, done that.

In particular, in the OP photo, I find the right side of the sky acceptable, but the left side, around the sun, appears to have exacerbated whatever tint was there, to the point that it becomes objectionably purplish/cyanish.

On a general note, when pulling things out of a shadow, we should bear in mind that things there can not possibly be as contrasty as the rest of scene (probably the cause of the "emotionally threatening" impression).

Compositionally, the tree and sun are too far to the left. No cropping or zooming would help, but simply walking around. Hiding the sun further behind a branch would have helped tremendously with exposure as well.

Exposing ETTR would not help either, because you are already burning the area around the sun. The only thing that would have helped is to bracket.

Also, processing the same raw file twice (once for shadows, the other for highlights) and then combining them for a HDR does not normally work, as there is no new information in either file (if I remember correctly, earlier PS versions would warn you so and refuse to blend it).

Also, as David discovered, just saving a single file as a 32-bit is not going to add any new information.

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16046
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 03:10:40 pm »

Hi David, First off, I don't want to pose as an expert on either exposure or post-processing. Everything I know is based on what I've read and observed over roughly the past twelve years -- since the first acceptable digital camera came out. Folks like Michael and Jeff Schewe are the real experts.

There are pictures whose dynamic range will fall within the exposure latitude of the camera and there are pictures whose brightness range simply won't. Both my D3 and D800 seem to give me latitude I never was able to get with film or earlier digitals, but there's still a limit. Generally speaking, if I can see that the camera will encompass the range, I'll go, carefully, for ETTR. Yes, the farther to the right you can get the exposure without blowing out the highlights, the more likely it is you'll be able to bring the lows into range without unacceptable noise. After all, the highest stop in the sensor's linear range holds half the data captured by the camera. The next stop down holds half of what's left -- and on down to the lowest stop, where there simply isn't much data. In searching for the right edge of ETTR, like Joe McNally I don't find the histogram to be terribly useful. The "blinkies" in the LCD version of the picture are more help, though you have to learn to interpret them.

On the other hand, if the histogram shows that the scene absolutely won't fit inside the camera's latitude and I'm  not going for the kind of high key thing where some blowouts won't matter, it's time to think about HDR. Strong backlight is the classic situation where this occurs.

Here's an example of what I think is reasonably good HDR, though it's a long way from something I'd hang my reputation on. "Straight" is the middle exposure from 9 frames, given reasonable post-processing but without trying to expand it with high and low layers. "American Eagles Blacksmithy" is the nine-frame HDR product. It's what's left of a turn-of-the-last-century blacksmith's shop high on a mountain in the Cripple Creek mining district.

I guess my whole point is: if you can see there might be a problem with dynamic range, why not bracket the shot so you can either use HDR or, if the latitude mismatch isn't too bad, simply merge a couple layers to bring things into alignment? I think a lot of us who grew up on film still tend to under-shoot. After all, if you've spent the time, trouble, and money to get to Moab, why not shoot a whole bunch of frames? They're cheap.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

Riaan van Wyk

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 812
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 03:48:53 pm »

Nice enough scene you have here David, I would have walked right past to get to the river :)

David Eckels

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3528
  • It's just a camera.
    • Website
Re: Red Cliffs Late Afternoon, Moab
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2013, 05:25:20 pm »

As we're never going to stop at the RAW; perhaps it would be better to compare the result of what you did, against the result of using the Lightroom auto settings?
I posted the untouched RAW file for Tony so he could see what I started with. May try the Auto settings too.

Russ-Coulda woulda shoulda. Unfortunately, I cannot re-shoot, but I am going to keep your comments in mind the next time I face a similar situation. I am curious to see if a multi-exposure set would change the "mood" referenced by Scott and Slobodan. The comments are very useful and in the end, this image may not be worth it, but I did cull a bunch of others as you have advocated for in the past ;) Maybe I will try a little toning in HEP2, just to see.

Slobodan-Understand your points and am trying to be mindful of the things you mention. Two things, non-defensively, other than the global changes mentioned, I didn't really over brighten the cliffs, they were highlighted already, but I did try to lighten just a bit some of the very dark shadows just to the right of the tree with the local brush; to my eye this is what was called for. Doesn't make it a great image, though. I don't see a purplish/cyanish tint on my calibrated monitor; in the tiff image, I see a greenish cyanish tint! that I tried to tone down. I'd be interested in your thoughts, as always. Compositionally, as I was shooting, I was honestly thinking, "What's Slobodan going to say about a little sun flare?" :D

Thanks for the comments. I always learn a lot from these discussions.
Pages: [1]   Go Up