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Author Topic: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman  (Read 11885 times)

BarbaraArmstrong

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DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« on: March 10, 2013, 07:23:43 PM »

Thank you, Hulyss, for your enthusiasm for the Sigma DPxM series, backed up with numerous photo attachments in the Cameras forum, and for your commentary here on the DP3M.  My DP3M arrived day-before-yesterday, and I spent yesterday afternoon shooting with it and the DP2M at Fort Flagler, Port Townsend, WA, where the Strait of Juan de Fuca turns south to become Puget Sound.  I had expected to use both cameras about equally, as the DP2M has been giving me absolutely spectacular images, and I was curious how the DP3M would compare.  Surprisingly, I shot almost exclusively with the DP3M, enjoying the greater "pull" of the 75mm effective focal length.  I'm still working with my resulting files, but am very pleased already.  Your enthusiasm for Sigma's accomplishment with the new compact Merrill line started me on this voyage of discovery, and what I have found is images which enlarge enticingly well for large-format printing.  Thanks again.  --Barbara
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thompsonkirk

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 12:54:54 AM »

But who in the world wants a 75mm (equivalent) 'normal' lens?   ???
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BarbaraArmstrong

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 03:18:14 AM »

I guess it's clear that you don't.   Frankly, for the acuity that I enjoyed with the DP2M, I would take any focal length that Sigma wanted to give me. --Barbara
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Rob C

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 04:35:35 AM »

But who in the world wants a 75mm (equivalent) 'normal' lens?   ???



Or, who in the world wants a non-interchangeable lens camera these days?

Guess it's all about Maharishis.

;-)

Rob C

Rand47

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2013, 10:43:50 PM »

. . .  Frankly, for the acuity that I enjoyed with the DP2M, I would take any focal length that Sigma wanted to give me. --Barbara

+1 on that.  My A900 and 20 lbs. of Zeiss & G lenses are sitting in the closet.

Rand
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 10:46:25 PM by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams

BernardLanguillier

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 11:36:14 PM »

Thanks for the feedback on the DP3m.

I love the files delivered by my DP2m and the DP3m is certainly tempting as well. It looks like the perfect stitching camera.

My only regret is that Sigma did not take advantage of the time they had to equip the DP3m with a much higher capacity battery.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!

Rob C

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 05:36:56 AM »

The majority.



Hi Keith,

In two words you have demonstrated the fatal flaw that lies at the heart of that strange concept, democracy. Well done!

Oh - as you may know I've been toying with the idea of getting myself another old 35mm PC Nikkor to replace the one I used to have, which seemed very crisp when used for brochures and estate agency stuff I did here...

Anyway, finding myself on the slippery slope to buying more things last night, I decided to scan three images I'd made using that optic and Velvia. Thank goodnes I did: not a single one was crisp. How much disappointment was Velvia v. Kodachrome  I can't say, but the credit card remained firmly in the wallet.

What was also notable was the very limited DR that I had forgotten about with Velvia, probably because I never used it with people so didn't become that accustomed to its foibles. The images could have been saved, but as they were simply to check crispness there was no point in working them.

Rob C

MarkL

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 09:16:02 AM »

But who in the world wants a 75mm (equivalent) 'normal' lens?   ???

People who take photographs of people?

Not a typical use but when I had my D700 my most used landscape lens for stitching was 85mm, this camera would work pretty well for that.
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OldRoy

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 12:52:38 PM »

The majority.
I'd suggest you don't make any large financial bets based upon the validity of this assertion.
Roy
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Rob C

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2013, 02:18:27 PM »

I'd suggest you don't make any large financial bets based upon the validity of this assertion.
Roy


If you bring in the concept of cellpix, then the numbers stack...

;-)

Rob C

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2013, 03:14:25 PM »

People who take photographs of people...

Not long enough. Neither here nor there. There is a reason the next prime lens (after normal) is 85mm.

Rob C

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 03:51:39 PM »

Not long enough. Neither here nor there. There is a reason the next prime lens (after normal) is 85mm.


And if you want to be kind instead of clever and hand-holding, you use nothing shorter than 105mm for full-lengths with 135mm for heads!

That's one guy's mantra for 135 format. Not a rule; an ideal.

;-)

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 03:55:49 PM »

You see, Rob, I get the best of both worlds: I use my 85mm prime on a crop sensor, thus having an equivalent 135mm lens ;)

ndevlin

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 02:26:30 PM »

Me. Perfect for portraits.  

- N.

ps. one of the best of the 'greatest lenses ever built' is the AA 75mm Summicron.  I find it just about the perfect focal length.  85mm would have been fine, too, but 75 won't deter anyone.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 02:29:37 PM by ndevlin »
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Ray

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2013, 10:55:47 AM »

I can see the great attraction of a sharp image but I'm puzzled as to the lack of identical scene comparisons with certain DSLRs that one might expect would produce a similar degree of sharpness when used with the best quality primes.

For example, if one already has a D800E and one wants the sharpest image possible, one could use the Nikkor AF-S 85mm F1.8G. which costs less than the DP3M.

The Foveon sensor traditionally produces the spacial resolution of a Bayer sensor (with AA filter) which has close to double the pixel count of the Foveon. If this relationship still holds, then the 15mp DP3M could have close to the resolution of a 30mp Bayer sensor with AA filter, but not quite the resolution of the 36mp D800, and perhaps more certainly not quite the resolution of the D800E, depending on quality of lenses used.

I would guess that the resolution of the DP3M would be about equal to that of the new 24mp Nikon D7100, which doesn't have an AA filter, when that camera is used with the same focal length of lens such as the excellent Nikkor AF-S 50/F1.4.
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MarkL

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2013, 01:00:22 PM »

I can see the great attraction of a sharp image but I'm puzzled as to the lack of identical scene comparisons with certain DSLRs that one might expect would produce a similar degree of sharpness when used with the best quality primes.

For example, if one already has a D800E and one wants the sharpest image possible, one could use the Nikkor AF-S 85mm F1.8G. which costs less than the DP3M.

The Foveon sensor traditionally produces the spacial resolution of a Bayer sensor (with AA filter) which has close to double the pixel count of the Foveon. If this relationship still holds, then the 15mp DP3M could have close to the resolution of a 30mp Bayer sensor with AA filter, but not quite the resolution of the 36mp D800, and perhaps more certainly not quite the resolution of the D800E, depending on quality of lenses used.

I would guess that the resolution of the DP3M would be about equal to that of the new 24mp Nikon D7100, which doesn't have an AA filter, when that camera is used with the same focal length of lens such as the excellent Nikkor AF-S 50/F1.4.

Lloyd Chambers did such a comparison but with the DP2M against the Nikon D600 (24MP) and the D600 resolved more detail. I think this is the major issue with foveon tech, yes it is nice to not have to interpolate but really you could just use a higher res bayer sensor and downsample to get a better result, it is not like oversampling is rare in other areas of digital.
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Ray

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2013, 08:58:19 PM »

Lloyd Chambers did such a comparison but with the DP2M against the Nikon D600 (24MP) and the D600 resolved more detail. I think this is the major issue with foveon tech, yes it is nice to not have to interpolate but really you could just use a higher res bayer sensor and downsample to get a better result, it is not like oversampling is rare in other areas of digital.

I'll be interested to see proper comparisons between the DP3 and the Nikon D7100.

By proper, I mean shooting the exact same scene with identical lighting, using the best equivalent prime lens with the Nikon, and applying appropriate sharpening to the D7100 image to bring out the maximum detail.

The fact that the detail and sharpness of the DP3 might equal that of the D7100 under such circumstances, is a credit to Sigma. But I'm afraid the disadvantages of these Foveon cameras with a fixed lens, poor high-ISO performance and possibly mediocre dynamic range, tends to put me off. It'll be interesting to see DXOMark's test results when they get around to it.
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Quentin

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2013, 04:24:27 AM »

I can see the great attraction of a sharp image but I'm puzzled as to the lack of identical scene comparisons with certain DSLRs that one might expect would produce a similar degree of sharpness when used with the best quality primes.

For example, if one already has a D800E and one wants the sharpest image possible, one could use the Nikkor AF-S 85mm F1.8G. which costs less than the DP3M.

The Foveon sensor traditionally produces the spacial resolution of a Bayer sensor (with AA filter) which has close to double the pixel count of the Foveon. If this relationship still holds, then the 15mp DP3M could have close to the resolution of a 30mp Bayer sensor with AA filter, but not quite the resolution of the 36mp D800, and perhaps more certainly not quite the resolution of the D800E, depending on quality of lenses used.

I would guess that the resolution of the DP3M would be about equal to that of the new 24mp Nikon D7100, which doesn't have an AA filter, when that camera is used with the same focal length of lens such as the excellent Nikkor AF-S 50/F1.4.

I don't have a DP3M yet but as many know I was one of the first to buy a DP2M and I also have a DP1M, and a Nikon D800E.

A big advantage of the Sigma DPxM series is a lack of lens angst. The lenses are outstanding and can be relied upon to deliver incredible detail.  While the D800E has a resolution advantage on paper, getting the best out of it depends on using the best lenses and not only that, good samples of the best lenses.  However, the D800/E is in my view a superior portrait tool and I use it with a sigma 85mm f1.4 for that purpose.  Used on a tripod with the best glass, the D800E is capable of superb results, but it is prone to shutter vibration at even fairly high shutter speeds. 
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013, 2014 & 2015

Ray

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2013, 08:59:39 AM »

I don't have a DP3M yet but as many know I was one of the first to buy a DP2M and I also have a DP1M, and a Nikon D800E.

A big advantage of the Sigma DPxM series is a lack of lens angst. The lenses are outstanding and can be relied upon to deliver incredible detail. 

That might be true, Quentin, but what about DR angst, focal length angst, high-ISO angst, and lack-of-VR angst?

Then there's the angst that the sum total of these other angsts might be greater than the freedom from lens angst.  ;D
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Rob C

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Re: DP3M Commentary by Hulyss Bowman
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2013, 10:16:24 AM »

That might be true, Quentin, but what about DR angst, focal length angst, high-ISO angst, and lack-of-VR angst?

Then there's the angst that the sum total of these other angsts might be greater than the freedom from lens angst.  ;D


Ray, you have forgotten all about the driving angst, the greatest angst of them all: follow the guru angst. It's the force, baby, the driving force. Who needs the ugly face of Fact if one can enjoy those twin effing sisters: Fiction and Faith?

;-)

Rob C
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