Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16   Go Down

Author Topic: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???  (Read 65034 times)

FredBGG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1633
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #200 on: March 08, 2013, 06:01:05 AM »

I want to nominate Fred BGG for the role of "Most Determined Poster On The Web Award" or forever known as the "Ditty".

We have now gone from a useful photography forum  . . . passed DP review . . .



. . . and now on the way to TMZ.

If somebody would just start a thread why photographing Justin Bieber with a Nikon is the only "right" solution, the process would be complete.

IMO

BC

Well Cooter it seems you are hear at all times waiting to pounce on me.
Congratulations!
And them have your buddy Yaya from Leaf play along.

Oh and for your information when I photographer Mr Bieber it was with a Canon.
Also why do you have it in for Bieber. He's a really nice kid, bloody hard worker and
entertains millions. He recently gave Half a million dollars to a children's charity,
gave generously to Hurricane Sandy victims. Not bad for a teenager.
Logged

bcooter

  • Guest
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #201 on: March 08, 2013, 07:02:47 AM »

Fred,

In life you gotta either laugh, cry or scream.

Nobody has it in for  you, or a teen star.  Heck I don't know anything about  anyone that's 15,  other than anytime I see one of those celeb links that litter my mail,  his name is on it.

Be honest man, you got boner for Nikon and really, really, really, spend a lot of time trying to pounce on Phase.

Phase or Leaf could announce free cameras made out of gold bars and I swear you'd say gold will make you hands turn green.

As far as Yair and the other reps on this forum, man your jackin' with them all the time and these people are professionals in every sense of the meaning

They are a positive resource for any professional photographer whether you buy their products or not.

I'd list it all, but you'd think I was getting free stuff or something and then you'd be jackin' with me.

All I know is if someone messed with my profession I'd be a lot less kind than they are.

This and every public forum has a lot of junk.  And camera forums are always talking one brand or format compared to another, but since you rode into town with your Nikon's blazin', this place has gone up a notch on the who gives a s**t level.

You know, you've shown a few nice photos and if you really shoot A list celebs for money, why not post a few decent images, or give a rundown of the shoot.  A lot of people would find that cool, (or is that kewl)?

But  . . . you can do what you want.  I don't own this place and it's really none of my business what anyone does, though don't think you can throw rocks and not wear a helmet.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 07:04:31 AM by bcooter »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #202 on: March 08, 2013, 07:03:14 AM »

Hi,

It just takes a calibrated distance scale with three full rotations, a couple of shims and laser distance meter.

That is the Alpa way.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Bernard,

Since we had the first camera to offer live view in 1996 and as we often use it as a USP for our backs I cannot disagree that this is a very handy tool. But it is far from being essential to delivering high quality images and it is not always useful (moving subjects etc.)

Yair

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1205
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #203 on: March 08, 2013, 07:47:50 AM »

Hi,

It just takes a calibrated distance scale with three full rotations, a couple of shims and laser distance meter.

That is the Alpa way.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

I use a technical camera on a regular base with Aptus and Credo backs and with/ without Live View. I do not use a distance meter and I do not shim any of the backs. I very rarely have any focusing issues

Hope this helps

Yair

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #204 on: March 08, 2013, 08:27:30 AM »

The Samyang is an OK lens. Actually quite excellent for the price. However i find it ridiculous to trash Nikon wide angles
if you love the Samyang.

Incase you missed it Nikon went through some pretty serious problems with the tsunami and floods.
While they already have some excellent wide angle lenses and one of the best ultra wide zooms I'm sure they are working
on even better lenses since they moved up to making 36MP cameras.


I find it completely incompentant to trash MF and you do it on every breath you take. It's like a 5 year old here where dealing with.
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 981
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #205 on: March 08, 2013, 09:15:18 AM »

It's like a 5 year old here where dealing with.

At least with a 5 year old you can still hope he will grow up and change...
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #206 on: March 08, 2013, 11:13:26 AM »

Hi Yair,

I don't know about Phase One AF or Mamiya AF but most AF systems can not achieve critical focus at large apertures. It also seems that a few people cannot achieve perfect focus with ground glass focusing either. I know that Diglloyd has problems with AF on all of Nikon D800E, Leica S2, Pentax 645D. This is not really about calibration, he found AF calibration does not really hep.

It seems that Alpa came up with a focusing system that allows the users to shim the backs, and several authors posted tutorials on achieving correct shimming, among others Mark Dubovoy (frequent author on LuLa). I don't think Alpa added the shimming option just out of vanity.

With live view you see the actual pixels when you focus, so you actually now that your point of focus is perfect.

Steve Hendricks indicated in a posting that photographers may be a bit tolerant on focusing errors.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

I use a technical camera on a regular base with Aptus and Credo backs and with/ without Live View. I do not use a distance meter and I do not shim any of the backs. I very rarely have any focusing issues

Hope this helps

Yair

yaya

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1205
    • http://yayapro.com
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #207 on: March 08, 2013, 11:43:42 AM »

Hi Yair,

I don't know about Phase One AF or Mamiya AF but most AF systems can not achieve critical focus at large apertures. It also seems that a few people cannot achieve perfect focus with ground glass focusing either. I know that Diglloyd has problems with AF on all of Nikon D800E, Leica S2, Pentax 645D. This is not really about calibration, he found AF calibration does not really hep.

It seems that Alpa came up with a focusing system that allows the users to shim the backs, and several authors posted tutorials on achieving correct shimming, among others Mark Dubovoy (frequent author on LuLa). I don't think Alpa added the shimming option just out of vanity.

With live view you see the actual pixels when you focus, so you actually now that your point of focus is perfect.

Steve Hendricks indicated in a posting that photographers may be a bit tolerant on focusing errors.

Best regards
Erik



As you may know most helical lens mounts on tech camera have got 3 little screws holding the focusing scale so the scale can be adjusted, placing infinity when it should be for a specific back. This can be done by the camera manufacturer or by the user.

Arca Swiss use a different helical mount that allows you to place infinity wherever you want without adjusting anything. Take a few shots, find the sharpest one and mark the number on the scale as your infinity. If you do this tethered through an open window with some very far objects it takes about 2-3 minutes not more

But as always I would suggest to try this for yourself, you don't need to take my word or anyone else's really...

Yair

Don Libby

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 780
  • Iron Creek Photography
    • Iron Creek Photography
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #208 on: March 08, 2013, 12:02:15 PM »

Typical bully response in attempting to deflect.  Hope someone here wakes up sooner than later...
Logged

Guy Mancuso

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1133
    • http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/index.php
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #209 on: March 08, 2013, 12:30:56 PM »

As you may know most helical lens mounts on tech camera have got 3 little screws holding the focusing scale so the scale can be adjusted, placing infinity when it should be for a specific back. This can be done by the camera manufacturer or by the user.

Arca Swiss use a different helical mount that allows you to place infinity wherever you want without adjusting anything. Take a few shots, find the sharpest one and mark the number on the scale as your infinity. If you do this tethered through an open window with some very far objects it takes about 2-3 minutes not more

But as always I would suggest to try this for yourself, you don't need to take my word or anyone else's really...

Yair



I have adjusted all three of my Cambo mounted lenses through resetting the infinity scale. My 35 XL was off a great deal. I did it tethered and shot at infinity and never had a issue since with focus. Like Yair I rarely used any aids in focusing my tech cam. The IQ or Credo does help a great deal though with the 100 percent zoom and for the IQ which I had the focus mask also is a great aid. Arca uses a unique system and Alpa and Cambo are basically the same type of setups. Cambos you can adjust the the back though through the mounting of the back, there are four screws on each corner t make that adjustment . Never found the need for that though as checking each lens seemed a far better way to achieve excellent focusing. Adjusting the back is a generic adjustment one lens may need more or less and my reason for going to adjust each lens.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 12:33:21 PM by Guy Mancuso »
Logged

FredBGG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1633
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #210 on: March 08, 2013, 12:41:28 PM »

Fred,

Be honest man, you got boner for Nikon and really, really, really, spend a lot of time trying to pounce on Phase.

IMO

BC

Hmmm... from one of my recent posts

The wifi implementation direct to iPad sending low res Full image and then tiles for zooming in
is a very smart approach. Minimal data is sent around saving battery and minimizing how much your optic nerve is exposed
to the wifi signal.... the antenna is really very very close to your eye. Smart to send just what the screen needs to display.
Efficient and a "fuel efficient" way to make it fast.

Nice work by Phase on this.

If I understand correctly it is not a substitute for tethering to save all raws to the computer or iPad.
However it is a very nice review tool. Particularly nice that it can send rating back to the camera.


Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #211 on: March 08, 2013, 02:01:12 PM »

Guy and Yair,

Thanks for making that clear!

Best regards
Erik

I have adjusted all three of my Cambo mounted lenses through resetting the infinity scale. My 35 XL was off a great deal. I did it tethered and shot at infinity and never had a issue since with focus. Like Yair I rarely used any aids in focusing my tech cam. The IQ or Credo does help a great deal though with the 100 percent zoom and for the IQ which I had the focus mask also is a great aid. Arca uses a unique system and Alpa and Cambo are basically the same type of setups. Cambos you can adjust the the back though through the mounting of the back, there are four screws on each corner t make that adjustment . Never found the need for that though as checking each lens seemed a far better way to achieve excellent focusing. Adjusting the back is a generic adjustment one lens may need more or less and my reason for going to adjust each lens.

theguywitha645d

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 970
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #212 on: March 08, 2013, 02:30:56 PM »

Hi,

What I read was that there was much discussion regarding color rendition between the the two groups of engineers.

Best regards
Erik



Never saw it. Didn't seem to be an issue. I doubt you can really see a shift in color from Minolta cameras and Konica Minolta cameras in terms of their color rendering. I doubt what you read was anything more than speculation.
Logged

theguywitha645d

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 970
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #213 on: March 08, 2013, 02:41:58 PM »

Hi Yair,

I don't know about Phase One AF or Mamiya AF but most AF systems can not achieve critical focus at large apertures. It also seems that a few people cannot achieve perfect focus with ground glass focusing either. I know that Diglloyd has problems with AF on all of Nikon D800E, Leica S2, Pentax 645D. This is not really about calibration, he found AF calibration does not really hep.

There are a large numbers of 645D and S2 user that come to a very different conclusion from Mr. Chambers. I do not think that he is the final word on cameras.

Quote
It seems that Alpa came up with a focusing system that allows the users to shim the backs, and several authors posted tutorials on achieving correct shimming, among others Mark Dubovoy (frequent author on LuLa). I don't think Alpa added the shimming option just out of vanity.

Mr. Dubovoy has written some very dubious articles showing he may not be a great person to have a final word either. As far as image plane tolerance, it is not a problem with focal length, but f-number. Also, I have seen shimming videos and many do not shim to infinity, but something closer, so an operator could be convinced the shims are required.

Quote
With live view you see the actual pixels when you focus, so you actually now that your point of focus is perfect.

Steve Hendricks indicated in a posting that photographers may be a bit tolerant on focusing errors.

Best regards
Erik

Naturally, what is "perfect" focus in a 3-dimensional space. As pixel resolution goes up, an operator can be fooled into thinking that focusing tolerances are going up as well. Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that.
Logged

jerome_m

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 671
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #214 on: March 08, 2013, 02:52:51 PM »

I am still testing the H3D versus the D800 (not necessarily for this forum, I would do it for myself alone) and I tried to compare the bokeh of the two systems. This time I will not be criticised for using a zoom lens, but I will probably be criticised because the two focal length do not match  ::) I used the HC 80mm f/2.8 on the H3D-31 and the Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.4G on the D800. The pictures are taken from the same point: I took one camera from the tripod and mounted the other one in its place.

The whole set with the pictures is here. There are two tests, one with flowers and one with a tree.

As expected, the Nikon could get a smaller depth of field because of the much larger aperture (and also because the H3D cannot always use its largest aperture in bright light). The results as to bokeh, on the other end, are less convincing for me, see for yourself if you like them.

The colours are not quite the same, even if the pictures are treated by the same software (and for the flowers the light changed). I did not try to match the colour, I find the difference instructive. On the flower, the D800 focussed on the wrong object (in live view AF mode). I did not try to correct that (I find interesting that the H3D gives better results automatically) and it would not have been easy anyway (I could barely see the D800 screen under the sun, so manual focussing using live view would have been tricky). There is probably also a teaching in that.  ;)
On the tree, both cameras focussed on the same point (the lens cap).

People enjoying pixel peeping may download the full resolution pictures using the flickr menus. There is little point, since nothing is really sharp, but I know that some people will want it anyway.

Here an example with the flowers: f/4 on the Nikon versus f/5.6 on the Hasselblad (the pictures are clickable):




Here an example with the tree (same apertures):


Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #215 on: March 08, 2013, 03:30:37 PM »

There are a large numbers of 645D and S2 user that come to a very different conclusion from Mr. Chambers. I do not think that he is the final word on cameras.
Well he has tons of examples to show. I guess that he shoots a lot at large apertures and tests the very best lenses. Anyway, problems with AF on Nikon and Canon are well documented. Myself, I am shooting Sony, and what I see is that LV is much more reliable than AF, but I mostly shoot at f/8 and that masks most AF errors.

I obviously cannot say about system I have not used, only report findings by others.

Check for instance this:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-ii-1-vs-2-and-old-vs-new
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-3a-canon-lenses

The latest generation of Canon lenses on latest generation Canon cameras seem to do very well.

Quote
Mr. Dubovoy has written some very dubious articles showing he may not be a great person to have a final word either. As far as image plane tolerance, it is not a problem with focal length, but f-number. Also, I have seen shimming videos and many do not shim to infinity, but something closer, so an operator could be convinced the shims are required.
I see your point.

Quote
Naturally, what is "perfect" focus in a 3-dimensional space. As pixel resolution goes up, an operator can be fooled into thinking that focusing tolerances are going up as well. Unfortunately, it is more complicated than that.
Hi, you mean focusing tolerances go down? Else it does not make sense.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:58:02 PM by ErikKaffehr »
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #216 on: March 08, 2013, 03:41:54 PM »

Hi,

Thanks for the samples. My Sony cameras have electronic viewfinders so I may have less problems with visibility of LV than you have. My old Sony Alpha did not have LV and that was the feature I felt I was lacking. I actually bought 3 cameras just because of LV.

The other observation I may have is that MF lenses can achieve short DoF at moderate apertures, most large aperture lenses have axial chromatic aberration, sometimes called LoCA or color bookeh. So smaller format lenses can give short DoF but color fringes is the price you pay. Zeiss has designed a new 55/1.4 Distagon that is free from color fringing at full aperture and they are very proud about it. http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/images/2013-0215-ZeissVideo.html

Best regards
Erik


I did not try to correct that (I find interesting that the H3D gives better results automatically) and it would not have been easy anyway (I could barely see the D800 screen under the sun, so manual focussing using live view would have been tricky). There is probably also a teaching in that.  ;)
On the tree, both cameras focussed on the same point (the lens cap).


theguywitha645d

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 970
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #217 on: March 08, 2013, 03:53:30 PM »

Hi, you mean focusing tolerances go down? Else it does not make sense.

Best regards
Erik
Yes, down.
Logged

jerome_m

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 671
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #218 on: March 08, 2013, 04:01:42 PM »

My Sony cameras have electronic viewfinders

Electronic viewfinders are what made me leave Sony after 26 years (starting with Minolta) and buy a D800.

The other observation I may have is that MF lenses can achieve short DoF at moderate apertures, most large aperture lenses have axial chromatic aberration, sometimes called LoCA or color bokeh. So smaller format lenses can give short DoF but color fringes is the price you pay. Zeiss has designed a new 55/1.4 Distagon that is free from color fringing at full aperture and they are very proud about it.

Indeed. People don't realise how important longitudinal chromatic aberration is (and spherical aberration as well). I wonder how the soon to be released SAL-50F14Z will compare to the 55 f/1.4 Distagon, BTW.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10118
    • Echophoto
Re: DIGITAL Medium Format photography is almost as moribund???
« Reply #219 on: March 08, 2013, 04:23:33 PM »

Hi,

The electronic viewfinder is a mixed bag. I like the live view, also virtual horizon and live histogram. But in bright light it is to dark.

Regarding the SAL 50/1.4 ZA I guess it is an old design, while the 55/1.4 is a Distagon design. It may be extra smart, today's sensors may not be able to handle light rays at high angles, so much of the large aperture is wasted: http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/F-stop-blues

I tested a Zeiss Sonnar 150/4 I bought on Tradera (Swedish E-Bay) and it was very good except for flare and ghosting, I have also a Planar 120/4 incoming. The Sonnar 150/4 was about the Zeiss lens for Hassy according to Zeiss MTF graphs, the 180 being even better but I wanted a smaller one. The Planar 120/4 doesn't really impress in the MTF graphs at infinity but pretty good at close up 1:5, interesting to see what I will find. Those lenses can be bought very cheap.

Best regards
Erik

Electronic viewfinders are what made me leave Sony after 26 years (starting with Minolta) and buy a D800.

Indeed. People don't realise how important longitudinal chromatic aberration is (and spherical aberration as well). I wonder how the soon to be released SAL-50F14Z will compare to the 55 f/1.4 Distagon, BTW.
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 16   Go Up