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Author Topic: Re: Recent Professional Works 2  (Read 434645 times)

ACH DIGITAL

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #840 on: October 30, 2013, 06:12:51 PM »

+1 I agree. Sometime that extra effort, not paid at the moment, brings new chances with clients.
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Ken R

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #841 on: October 30, 2013, 07:50:38 PM »

Ive been working with this client for 6 years. And no they will not pay for extra usage. They pay for the shooting day that is it. It is a small market but they have to / want to use new images constantly. I did this shooting for 2 hours one afternoon. On that day I had another job with another different client in the morning.

This client has tried other photographers and they come back to me now they just hire me, always. Good price, good quality, fast and I am responsible and coordinate the shoots well. It is more about the service. Not always 100% about the image. Also I deal well with the owners of the mostly expensive properties. It seems absurd but if they do not like you they might complaint to the client.

Also, if I h=give this client the service of a more involved production for free how would I justify charging for it on another shoot? They will absolutely say, and rightfully so, "last time you brought lights, grip equipment and took time to light the scene and you only charged me x amount.."
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 07:54:45 PM by Ken R »
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HarperPhotos

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #842 on: October 30, 2013, 08:04:26 PM »

Hi Ken,

I totally agree with your comment Ken

“Also, if I h=give this client the service of a more involved production for free how would I justify charging for it on another shoot? They will absolutely say, and rightfully so, "last time you brought lights, grip equipment and took time to light the scene and you only charged me x amount.."

You start giving them the full service for the cost of a get in and out quick shoot the you are bugged.

Cheers

Simon
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Simon Harper
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bcooter

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #843 on: October 30, 2013, 10:41:23 PM »

Hi Ken,

I totally agree with your comment Ken

“Also, if I h=give this client the service of a more involved production for free how would I justify charging for it on another shoot? They will absolutely say, and rightfully so, "last time you brought lights, grip equipment and took time to light the scene and you only charged me x amount.."

You start giving them the full service for the cost of a get in and out quick shoot the you are bugged.

Cheers

Simon

Simon, Ken,

This is something we all fight in today's economy, large production or small.

We'll get a gig that big, but still the cost is held tight and to be safe you want to double your lights, add more crew, maybe even add another 4k RED or a focus puller, steadycam op,  etc. etc., but we're working from a bottom line and they know they aren't paying for all that extra convenience and safety.  

It's a tightrope and I agree with Ken and Simon, do the very best, very professionally with what you have and get on with it.   As long as your honest about what your going to provide then everyone is usually more than happy.

Turning an image or video with twice the production values might seem like a good idea and be appreciated, but usually it works the opposite way and the next time they ask why do you need to charge for that?

Ashley,

You work differently in the fact you have a unique system of shooting on assignment with the agreement to liscense your imagery to others later.  It's a good plan and the investment pays off for you.

For me,  my client's would have a coronary if I tried to cut a deal to sell their images later.  

In most cases after the licensing is up I could, in fact I have millions of dollars in lifestyle production I could offer,  but it wouldn't go over very well.

IMO

BC

P.S.

Actually I'll tell you a little secret.  A few years ago we we're shooting a still and video production and the client's ad manager asked how I promote myself.  I said by building equity with my clients and pointed to the extra RED1, the steadicam operator and focus puller.

I said there is no line item for them, I threw that in for free and that is hard cost out of my pocket of about $8,000 plus cameras I own, lens rentals etc.

The ad manager asked why I would do that and I said because you'll get imagery that's more than you expected, more usable and should put me ahead of anyone I compete with.

He kind of smiled and said, uh yea, I guess so, but next time will you do it?

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 10:51:33 PM by bcooter »
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #844 on: October 30, 2013, 11:45:39 PM »

Word.

I am incredibly invested in gear.  Mostly because I am a big gear junky, but also because I believe that the right tools liberate creativity and allow me to do the best job that I am capable of.  I hire an assistant or two for every shoot I do and always have the same complement of equipment with me.  Well, unless we're also shooting motion and then I have twice the gear.

This week is crazy.  We started off in Austin.  I'm currently in Nashville and am catching a flight to D.C. tomorrow.  It's going to cost the client a few grand just to fly my gear around all week.  They look at the pile of gear though and they just go "Wow".  It almost doesn't even matter how much of it we actually use.

And then they look at the images on the laptop and they go "Wow" again... and we've just justified the costs.  Sometimes we go out with a couple dozen lights and only set up one... but every single time I've left some of my gear at home it's hurt my images... a missing hi-light here, not as much texture there, that little extra sparkle that puts the image over the top.  When that happens I just end up turning around, closing my eyes and quietly screaming "FUCK FUCK FUCK" in my mind.

I don't really know exactly what I'm getting at here, except to say... that Cooter's example struck a nerve.  If you want to make the best work possible, if you want to be in this for the long run, make money and be respected, then don't dick around.

Rant brought to you by Fat Tire Amber.

Now here's a picture of an elevator.

bcooter

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #845 on: October 31, 2013, 12:30:39 AM »

Word.


I don't really know exactly what I'm getting at here, except to say... that Cooter's example struck a nerve.  If you want to make the best work possible, if you want to be in this for the long run, make money and be respected, then don't dick around.



I get it.

We travel with 4,900 lbs of equipment, from asia through europe and keep lighting, grip and computers in three cities and like Chris says, if I leave something I didn't want to carry like the hmi's or a lens set I curse myself.

And don't get me wrong, the image matters, really matters and in the end that's all anyone sees, but it does have an effect if you come in on set with cases of equipment, crew and work highly professional.

Professionalism, work ethic, to equipment matters and with the addition of video you can't have too much equipment (unfortunately).

Still, there is a fine line between being prepared and giving away the store and the days of a single tasking crew member is over.

The only people I work with that single task are the sound tech and usually hair and makeup.   I expect prop stylists to wardrobe, wardrobe to prop, the guy running the dit station can sure as hell pick up a light stand, or a Pelican case, because I do.

Ok, now off to bed.

BC







« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 07:25:00 AM by bcooter »
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HarperPhotos

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #846 on: October 31, 2013, 01:11:04 AM »

Hello,

A new image for Honda combining Dedo lights and my new Ice Light.

Nikon D800E and Nikon 80-200mm G lens @ 92mm, F16.0, 10 Sec, 100ISO

Cheers

Simon
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 04:29:05 AM by HarperPhotos »
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Simon Harper
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alatreille

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #847 on: October 31, 2013, 01:21:36 AM »


Now here's a picture of an elevator.



Mighty fine elevator at that....

Careful over delivery may make it easier for a new client to become a repeat client...but over delivery for the repetitive sake of over delivery....you'll be needing to work at the goldenarches through the midnight hours.

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Ken R

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #848 on: October 31, 2013, 09:31:09 AM »

Yelhsa:

That is right. Ideally one would charge for the use of images and concede rights to certain media and time usage and based on the media's circulation / reach and the time used and calculate cost based on that. I think there are even tables for this.

I do adjust my fee depending on the usage and scope of the project or campaign the images will be a part of but my client has to at least cover the actual production and post-production costs + my fee of the shoot. (Cost + Fee).

I honestly do not have the time or the resources to monitor the usage of the images I produce for my clients. A lot of the time the client does not even have the entire media plan set in stone when the images are produced, just a general idea. I do specify the intended use on all my invoices. If by chance I see that they deviated a lot from that and / or the ad agency uses the images for another product / brand or anything else then I might confront the ad agency or client. But in the 10 years that I have been in business that has never happened.

With stock or stock type photography then it is another story since you basically run with all production costs (or the stock agency) and the stock agency manages the images for you. Also a lot of editorial and wedding photographers also put their images in their stock photography agency of choice. They mostly work for a fee and then make up their income with the stock sales.

Basically there is not one clear cut business model for everything it depends on the situation and market.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2013, 09:34:41 AM by Ken R »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #849 on: October 31, 2013, 11:36:25 AM »

Does he or does he just need to pay you enough for 'the use of your images' to cover all of this ?
Because there is a big difference between asking someone to pay for 'the use of your work' and asking them to pay you 'to do the work' for them.

Anyway, it's sounds like you don't have time for any of this, so I'll leave it at that.

Cheers
Ashley.


My thoughts.

Being that this is the medium format forum, I assume that those who post and follow this section are either those at the top or those who aspire to be there.  If this is the case (for anyone), my question is can you really afford to produce images any less than your best? 

A few years ago, a very smart consultant told me that a potential client will always judge you on your worse images.  You could have some of the best work out there, but if a high end prospect sees a shitty set of images you shot (especially recently), none of that other work will matter in his eyes.  So, for my business development, I never will shoot less than the best I can, and most of the time I am still not completely happy with the images I produce, because there is always something else I could have done.  (How much sleep have I lost to this?)

Does this mean that you will make less than you should on a project, maybe, or maybe you just don't shoot those jobs?  So IMO, charge like Ashley does and have faith more licensing will be bought later on (happens at least 50% of the time for me) or let them go.  Either choice can be a hard pill to swallow sometimes, but in the end, most clients like this dont pay well anyway.  And if not doing this job means you'll have less money but also one less set of shitty images out there for the high end prospects (the ones who pay well) to see and degrade you with, then I would let that money go. 

But anyway, here is an image of a crappy lunch room/hallway in an township utilities garage.  Not the best space out there, but hey, they needed it documented, for, you know ... marketing stuff.  I used three strobes and two hot lights, and they were very pleased I gave it the same attention as the nicer spaces in the other building. 
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #850 on: October 31, 2013, 12:36:58 PM »

Came across this on the web. Seems like something to come handy next time a client asks you to do it cheaper. Original source here:)

bcooter

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #851 on: October 31, 2013, 12:42:05 PM »

.. would have said: "Why are you asking ?" - and then listened to what he had to say.

Because it's sounds to me, like he may have had something interesting to say to you here - in regards to how you could actually charged them more.

 :-X







He actually meant if I went that direction next time would I charge full tilt?   Me I'd probably try to find a good middle ground.

Ashley, you and I have had this discussion before and I respect your business model.  I also own my images, but honestly no client that runs a dedicated still and motion campaign that takes 6 months to complete is going to be happy if I keep hitting them with extra usage because some in store or product layed on a shelf for an extra month, just like they assume I won't take their imagery and sell it into stock, for anyone, even though I can.

My goal is to improve, to work, to stay busy (because I like hard work) and be paid well.  I never have a master plan but I do shake it up.  Now I've added a space in London (where I am today) and I love it.

It's opened up new business and a  new life experience, put me closer to family and allowed for a different thought process.  I just had european clients in last week for an edit.  I flew in from LA to meet them.  I could have squeezed them for airfare and transfers, but it was my decision to be here and make it easier for them.

Good work, convenience and lack of small time bullshit always pays off long term.

But understand I do appreciate your business model and if it works for you, keep on cooking.

IMO

BC

Chris Barrett

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #852 on: November 02, 2013, 10:33:35 AM »

Photographer's business models can be such a source of aggravation for clients as well as other photographers.  I have no desire to police the usage of my images, I want to spend my time making more of them.

I think in these regards I'm fortunate to be working (for the most part) in the niche of architecture.  Residual usage rights drive architects nuts.  My fee model is based upon a day rate.  Within that rate I included a license for unlimited usage of the images.  That dayrate is probably higher than a lot of my competition, but my clients seem to be happy to pay it and not have to worry about when or where they use the images.

Also, my clients usually have no problem with stock sales.  In fact, most of my stock sales are referred by the original client.

So, I make a lot of images and I make a nice living.  I really don't spend any of my time calculating and chasing usage fees.  My clients are happy.  Life is simple and good.  This business model may not work for everyone, it may even piss some photographers off but it's been pretty sound for me over the last 20 years.

CB

bcooter

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #853 on: November 02, 2013, 01:13:02 PM »

Photographers don't have unions, collective bargaining power, or paid advocates in every nation's Capitol.

Photographers are just hired hands and usage has always been a sticky subject to discuss, but the real honest to god truth is nothing matters unless you turn a profit.

Doesn't mean that usage isn't a consideration, in Chris' case he uses it to bargain for more money, in Ashely's case he uses it to bargain for more money, they just come about it from different angles.

In my case we're a bottom line group.  Pay us we'll play, but we have a number we have to hit and getting rich off of one gig isn't the plan.

Doing a lot of gigs is.


IMO

BC


Photographer's business models can be such a source of aggravation for clients as well as other photographers.  I have no desire to police the usage of my images, I want to spend my time making more of them.

I think in these regards I'm fortunate to be working (for the most part) in the niche of architecture.  Residual usage rights drive architects nuts.  My fee model is based upon a day rate.  Within that rate I included a license for unlimited usage of the images.  That dayrate is probably higher than a lot of my competition, but my clients seem to be happy to pay it and not have to worry about when or where they use the images.

Also, my clients usually have no problem with stock sales.  In fact, most of my stock sales are referred by the original client.

So, I make a lot of images and I make a nice living.  I really don't spend any of my time calculating and chasing usage fees.  My clients are happy.  Life is simple and good.  This business model may not work for everyone, it may even piss some photographers off but it's been pretty sound for me over the last 20 years.

CB
« Last Edit: November 02, 2013, 10:10:39 PM by bcooter »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #854 on: November 02, 2013, 02:40:42 PM »

Photographer's business models can be such a source of aggravation for clients as well as other photographers.  I have no desire to police the usage of my images, I want to spend my time making more of them.

I think in these regards I'm fortunate to be working (for the most part) in the niche of architecture.  Residual usage rights drive architects nuts.  My fee model is based upon a day rate.  Within that rate I included a license for unlimited usage of the images.  That dayrate is probably higher than a lot of my competition, but my clients seem to be happy to pay it and not have to worry about when or where they use the images.

Also, my clients usually have no problem with stock sales.  In fact, most of my stock sales are referred by the original client.

So, I make a lot of images and I make a nice living.  I really don't spend any of my time calculating and chasing usage fees.  My clients are happy.  Life is simple and good.  This business model may not work for everyone, it may even piss some photographers off but it's been pretty sound for me over the last 20 years.

CB

I tend to be in the same boat Chris.  Direct usage billing your get me tossed out on my ear but then again the usage for most of the work I produce has a limited shelf life due to model year introductions.  I ditched the day rate model years ago because the clients just kept adding more and more shots to the list.  Its all piece rate now for me.  X shot costs X Y shot cost Y and so on. Post to my taste is included. I have some ala carte billing points to cover unusual situations but really they don't crop up very often.  Besides, if I have perfected my methods so that I produce the images in less time, why should I be penalized?

RV photography is a pretty tiny niche. My clients are generally happy and keep calling me year after year.  Not counting when the Marketing manager gets fired or takes another job and the new person like some other photography. Sometime I win some of those back again :)

But I work all I want and I earn a very good living.  Like you, no need to complicate it.   Not at this stage of my career anyways.

Which brings up another question ..off topic.  I'm 61 this year and I'm looking out over the retirement landscape.  It just kind of hit me this year that there will be some sort of end in sight someday.  I'm still capable of doing the work ( I work with just my wife so I'm the grunt too) but I'm trying to decide if I really ready to quit, or at least in a few years.  So how long is everyone looking to work?

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Scott Hargis

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #855 on: November 03, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »

I'm doing a hybrid model: day rate + a "per image" fee. This keeps the shot list reasonable, and also allows me to do really small jobs, with maybe only 2 or 3 photos, without losing money.
Like many of the other architectural photographers here, I'm granting very broad licensing to my architect/design/build clients. Perpetuity, broadcast & display, web, print collateral, local advertising. I exclude National Print, editorial, and of course third-party usage, where I make a lot of money. I do lots of secondary licenses. When you're shooting for someone's portfolio, it's difficult to impose a time limit. I wouldn't accept it if I were on the other side.

Straight-ahead advertising work, on the other hand, has more of a tradition of more controlled rights-management, and I guess I'd be happy enough to play by those rules, if I were in that game.

Chris Barrett

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #856 on: November 03, 2013, 03:17:32 PM »

Interesting.  My clients all know about how many shots we can get in a day.  For interiors it's usually 4, 5 if we have great ambient.  I've had people come at me asking for much more (as they're accustomed to photographers not taking much time with the shots).  I just explain my process and they usually cut the shot list in half.

I do have a per shot cost that I call "Capture / Processing / Retouching" which also dissuades the "All you can eat" mindset.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 03:37:04 PM by Chris Barrett »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #857 on: November 03, 2013, 05:34:02 PM »

Interesting.  My clients all know about how many shots we can get in a day.  For interiors it's usually 4, 5 if we have great ambient.  I've had people come at me asking for much more (as they're accustomed to photographers not taking much time with the shots).  I just explain my process and they usually cut the shot list in half.

I do have a per shot cost that I call "Capture / Processing / Retouching" which also dissuades the "All you can eat" mindset.

Mine do to, now. I'm happy to shoot as much as I can each day, because each image adds directly to the invoice, but there is a practical limit.  That said, not all shots are major productions.  A shot of a pantry stocked with stuff takes a lot less time that a full interior for example.  So a good day might be 5 images or it might be 20.  I also bill  a "file fee". Its kind of a hold over from the transition days from film to digital and then it was a way to counter the, "its digital it does not cost you anything" mentality.  I always equated it to the drum scan and proof fees they paid with film.  Its a substantial chunk of change each so I'm not really that hip on eliminating it. 
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #858 on: November 03, 2013, 06:44:58 PM »

Interesting.  My clients all know about how many shots we can get in a day.  For interiors it's usually 4, 5 if we have great ambient.  I've had people come at me asking for much more (as they're accustomed to photographers not taking much time with the shots).  I just explain my process and they usually cut the shot list in half.

I do have a per shot cost that I call "Capture / Processing / Retouching" which also dissuades the "All you can eat" mindset.

This can be a make or break with some firms.  I tell people anywhere from 5 to 7, depending on the interiors, how much staging is involved, if it will just my assistant and I or people from the firm will be there (which is how I like it).  

Although some firms like the 15 to 20 images in a day.  I met with a firm in the beginning of the year and they asked how many I could get in a day.  I said 5 to 7; they said that they usually get 12 to 15.  I asked why they would need so many.  They said they like to tell the entire story and some of the rooms would be small side rooms anyway.  I gave them a sample estimate and I never heard back from them.  I finally got a hold of them three months later.  They said the other guy priced out 15 images for about 30% less.  

I had found that I would spend more time in total making an HDR image look to the same standards as if I lit the space.  So to shoot 15 images in a day and than spend all that time in post and charge less for it makes no sense to me.  This is especially the case when I am always asked by the highest end clients if I light my interior images.  It is kind of a "your book looks great closed, so please give me a reason to open it."

Speaking of lighting, there was a good amount of lighting in this image.  The image looked a little rough in raw with no adjustments, which made me not too excited.  Now that it is done, I'm digging it; client really digs it too.  
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 06:46:41 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Recent Professional Works 2
« Reply #859 on: November 03, 2013, 11:16:32 PM »

A few recents, good to be shooting boats again.  34', and 31' boats shot in the factory





« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 11:27:26 PM by Craig Lamson »
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