Canon 24mm T/S probably the best wide angle ever made.....

[Peter Devos]

... for an affordable price. As i own a Hartbleicam but mostly shoot it in studio with ancient lenses, i never really got out there and test the 24mm for real. Last week i was in Brussels with the local Hartblei representative and we went out for a shoot on top of a large building. I had my 24mm TS and he provided his Imacon 132c. This is what we shot at F11 and 8mm shifted down. Image was opened in Flexcolor, no DAC was possible. Than saved and reopened in Photoshop and NO CA- corrections of any sort, nor other than opening the shadows in the panoramashot were done. In the shot with the sun shining inside the room, NO correction of any kind was done. Try that with any Mamiya or other lenses :-)
There are much better lenses for sale, but not at 1800 euro ex TVA. Combined with probably the most versitile MF body available, the Hartbleicam, one gets a very powefull tool for architecture. Next week we go back to test the 17mm TS lens.

[Peter Devos]

The window image 

[JoeKitchen]

For the value, yes I would say it is a great lens. The best ever, have to disagree here.  Don't get me wrong, it does me very well right now, but one of the reasons I will upgrading to MF is due to this lens.  First, it's a heavy retro focal lens designed around a mirror box and is not as sharp as the comparable Schneider (which is more than twice the price of course).  Also, there is a mild blue/green fringe on the edges of the wall and metal around the window, also a product of the retro design.  This drives me insane when I am processing my images.  Yes, it is a more common problem when something is back lit, but when shooting interiors their is always something back lit.  

[Doug Peterson]

Have you had the chance to use a Schneider 28XL, or Rodenstock 23HR, 28HR, or 32HR?

Everything is relative.

[Peter Devos]

Have you had the chance to use a Schneider 28XL, or Rodenstock 23HR, 28HR, or 32HR?

Everything is relative.

But at what price....
Canon 24mm T/S probably the best wide angle ever made... for an affordable price.

[Peter Devos]

For the value, yes I would say it is a great lens. The best ever, have to disagree here.  Don't get me wrong, it does me very well right now, but one of the reasons I will upgrading to MF is due to this lens.  First, it's a heavy retro focal lens designed around a mirror box and is not as sharp as the comparable Schneider (which is more than twice the price of course).  Also, there is a mild blue/green fringe on the edges of the wall and metal around the window, also a product of the retro design.  This drives me insane when I am processing my images.  Yes, it is a more common problem when something is back lit, but when shooting interiors their is always something back lit.  

Hi Joe, I shot similar things with Nikon 14/24, Mamiya 28mm( worst of all, useless lens) and many other lenses. Of all these lenses, none of them performed as the 24mm TS on medium format.
Yes, the HR lenses are better, but they cost as much as the canon lens with Hartbleicam... and they are much more limited in use. The Hartblei simply is such a versatile camera in studio and on location. When it is about making a living in photography, sometimes a compromise is a good thing. :-)

[Doug Peterson]

O, ok. I didn't initially understand the [...] of your title led into the [...] in the body of your post.

You're saying is the 24TS is a darn good lens and is a great value for the money; I agree 100%.

It's not, IMO, in the same league as the Schneider and Rodenstock wide angles, but if you're on a limited budget it's a darn good lens.

[pixjohn]

Sounds more like a troll, why  post this in Medium Format forum! The picture sample, look like snap shots, shoot a real job and get back to me. The 24xl lens I shoot with blows those pictures away.

[FredBGG]

Sounds more like a troll, why  post this in Medium Format forum! The picture sample, look like snap shots, shoot a real job and get back to me. The 24xl lens I shoot with blows those pictures away.

He clearly states that is is a test shot... most importantly with no CA applied. It's in the medium format section because he shot it with a MF camera body and back... duh...

He is right that it is an exceptional lens whatever your budget.

I compared the Canon TS 24 to the Nikon TS 24 and the Canon is significantly better. This is particularly interesting if
one looks at this comparisson:

http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/

The nikon with the 24mm TS did well against the IQ180...

At 30×20 inches, you can see subtle but clear differences between the IQ180 and the D800E.
Not all of them weighted in favour of the medium format camera, though.
For instance, the D800E produced much more pleasing shadow areas on the prints of the photographs produced to test dynamic range.

The Canon 24mm being significantly better than the Nikon 24mm ... I wonder how this comparison would have gone with the Canon TS on the Nikon D800.

Canon has made some significant progress recently with some of it's newer lenses. They are also using some manufacturing techniques that go beyond the grinding used by other
manufacturers.

If it was not an exceptional lens Alpa would not have done this:





I think it's safe to say that Alpa knows what they are doing...

[gerald.d]

There is absolutely no question that, for the money, the 24TSE-II is a fantastic lens, and performs astonishingly well on MF considering it was never designed for it.

For those who haven't seen these before, here are some test shots I did a while ago at various apertures and with 0mm and 5mm rise on an IQ180/HCam.

http://08.ae/panos/HCam/24mmTSE/24TSE.html

A couple of people suggested I should have gone to f/16 on those for even better results.

Here's a more recent comparison against the 23HR.

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/487229-post36.html

Again, people suggested I wasn't getting the most out of the TSE. I'll see if I can find time this afternoon to redo something similar to the original test including f/16.

Regards,

Gerald.

[gerald.d]

...
The Canon 24mm being significantly better than the Nikon 24mm ... I wonder how this comparison would have gone with the Canon TS on the Nikon D800.
...

Sadly can't be done, since you can't mount EF lenses on Nikon.

However, with the advent of the HCam and ALPA FPS, at least we can do a lens comparison on the IQ180

[gerald.d]

OK, just got back from doing another test, comparing the two at f/8, f/11 and f/16.

A quick peak provides some very interesting results, but my preliminary observations are...

Both at f/16 - TSE wins.
Both at f/8 - HR wins.

HR at f/8, TSE at f/16 - HR wins, but it's very, very close.

/edit

Thread here.

[Peter Devos]

Sounds more like a troll, why  post this in Medium Format forum! The picture sample, look like snap shots, shoot a real job and get back to me. The 24xl lens I shoot with blows those pictures away.

No troll, just someone that is using a Hartbleicam and came to the conclusion that for the kind a money you pay for it, it is a darn good investement. Sure, an IQ180 will blow away an Ixpress 132c and it is no more than logical that a 6400 euro lens performs way better than a 1800 euro lens. But if you are a working pro, at the end of the day all that counts is the how much money you have in the pocket. For many clients that want super wide angle, perspective corrected and for use up to A3 ( wich is max for most printing in magazines) this combo perfectly fits. On the plus side, you have a real viewfinder with groundglass and you can fit almost all lenses ever made on it. I really like the old Biotar design lenses for example 

[gerald.d]

No troll, just someone that is using a Hartbleicam and came to the conclusion that for the kind a money you pay for it, it is a darn good investement. Sure, an IQ180 will blow away an Ixpress 132c and it is no more than logical that a 6400 euro lens performs way better than a 1800 euro lens. But if you are a working pro, at the end of the day all that counts is the how much money you have in the pocket. For many clients that want super wide angle, perspective corrected and for use up to A3 ( wich is max for most printing in magazines) this combo perfectly fits. On the plus side, you have a real viewfinder with groundglass and you can fit almost all lenses ever made on it. I really like the old Biotar design lenses for example 

Peter - see the thread I've just posted comparing the 23HR to the 24TSE. I think you might find the results rather interesting...

[Peter Devos]

Hi Gerald, i have seen them. Great test! My point was only that for 7500 euro, one can have a great wide angle solution and a super versatile studio camera. The 24TSE on a digiback still is much better than anything on a D800 :-)   (just to start some action in this tread    )
We are also planning to come to Dubai. Do you have some good info, maybe per PM?
Peter.

[Rob C]

I'm not a believer, but every night I get down on my hands and knees and pray to the gods that Canon will announce a body that takes full advantage of the 17mm TS-E.

Keith, isn't there an answer in one of those 'pancake' cameras that used to be popular: Silvestri and also the Corfield? They'd offer a full image circle every time, I think, and then you'd just have to use the parts of it you want.

I'm sure there would be suitable digital backs that would fit what was originally designed for film.

Rob C

[Stefan.Steib]

It´s not only the lens mount (which at a significantly larger inner diameter offers more shift with less vignetting).
It´s mostly the pressed aspheric lenses that Canon does, as much as I know they have an advantage of some years ! over the competition,
this allows them to produce very stable, very equal lenses that can be mounted with machines, limiting variations even further and
as a sideeffect make the lenses cheaper too.
the downside of this is probably it only works for a significant number of lenses, to set up the full process may be tricky and
thus they did not yet replace the 45 and 90mm.
I´m sure sooner or later they will. Right now we can supply our Zeiss lenses to fill in that gap, but imagine what will happen
if Canon does the same quality for half the price at 1700-2000 € a lens !

As soon as Canon will launch their high res body it will happen, they have to support this new bodies with lenses.

The beauty of our HCam Concept is about offering larger format using the resources of the 35mm R&D departments of Canon, Nikon and Zeiss and others who
are now heavily investing into that 35mm segment. I believe this can help MF backs to be useful for a much longer time.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan

[FredBGG]

I'm looking for a DSLR solution. The problem is even if Nikon introduced a 17mm T/S I doubt it would be an equal to the Canon. They'd need to redesign their lens mount.

Not if the lens could be a slower lens. f 5.6 for example. No real need for faster lenses as live view could be used for critical focusing.

I would not under estimate Nikon ability to upgrade their lenses.
With their mainstream  $ 3,000 and $2,000 bodies being 36 and 24 MP they will have more demand for newer improved lenses, especially for the
D800E. The improvements they made on the 70-200mm 2.8 and the 85mm 1.4 models is indicative of what they can do.

[Rob C]

I wonder if their problem is really about design; I am increasingly thinking that it's one of quality control before they ship. I just feel that too many reasonably good snappers have differing opinions on so many Nikkor lenses.

That 24mm TS thing gets mixed reports and so does the 2.8/24mmm-70mm G, by which some swear and which I couldn't stand. We can't really all be so far apart in expectations - it must be production flaws. And unless they master that, nothing is going to make their reputation what it was up to the 1980s.

Schneider made a 28mm PC for Leica that got a great review in the BJP of the day; I wonder how that would work on digital?

Rob C

[Rob C]

Thinking about Nikon/Canon and deep wider throats, I wonder if Nikon might feel this a good time to produce an alternative to the 135 slr bodies and try out a variation on the Merrill idea: a specially designed body, with live view, that could accept a couple of PC/Tilt lenses to new design, even work off a larger sensor. It would have to be expensive, but specialist stuff always is.

It would not compete with their normal product line any more than did the 38mm lens in the dedicated Hasselblad of yesteryear, supposely the best lens of its era in that focal length, damage Hassy. Wouldn't even need a reflex box to screw up design parameters: a tripod would be taken for granted.

Rob C