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Author Topic: Book Module, blurb and color management  (Read 10658 times)

andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2018, 11:03:50 AM »

Well this thread originated back in 2013 and Blurb's requirements have changed since then.
There's now a difference in recommended practice between PDF to book (now prefers CMYK files in their own profile), Bookwright (sRGB) and LR's print module(delivers sRGB as I understand it).

Let's be clear about about a couple of issues.
Waving around dE numbers in this context isn't helpful when looking at this. What you need to know is what colours won't reproduce as expected, not just theoretical colour differences.
What we need to know is where the printer gamut may be smaller than the file's sRGB colourspace . Any colours beyond aren't important as the source file won't have them in it anyway.


The deltaE numbers clearly illustrate it's just foolish to advise people soft proof using sRGB for anything but sRGB. It's equally foolish to recommend a CMYK profile for soft proofing that doesn't define the CMYK print conditions. You've totally failed to provide any evidence that your recommendation is sound and the colorimetry AND visual examples show your concept is wrong and silly. By all means use your own silly workflow but if you come into forums and advise others to do so, those with colorimetric data and proof will call you out. And you have been called out and you've not provided any evidence your concept makes any sense other than to you and maybe your other friend here.


Let's be clear about a couple of facts already provided that dismiss this idea that soft proofing with ANY ICC profile that doesn't define the actual process is (to be kind) really dumb and a waste of time.
And while you're ignoring any request to provide data to back up your claims, perhaps it is silly for me to ask you to specifically tell us what you mean when you say: Blurb's requirements have changed since then. This another set of assumptions or you have specific data (profiles for one) to prove what they supply is what is used for conversion and output?


Your text about out of gamut is equally misinformed; you again need the actual output profile used for printing to view an OOG overlay which itself is often buggy and not at all useful. So again, you've illustrated to your audience it would be prudent to study the facts and learn from those of us who's day job is involved in color. Or not; just try not to provide so much misinformation on this subject unless you continue to desire to be corrected. OK? 
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2018, 11:06:44 AM »

What the Blurb profile says is where the dart board is likely to be, you might not get a double 20, but you're more likely to hit it.
What the Blurb profile says is it's not a profile for any of their output conditions. You'd understand that fact if you understood how to examine the profile itself, but it's not necessary; you seem to believe incorrectly that one supplied ICC profile defines all of Blurb's output conditions, papers and the fact they use differing press technology for differing parts of a book.
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2018, 11:37:28 AM »

ask you to specifically tell us what you mean when you say: Blurb's requirements have changed since then.
Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB.
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you seem to believe incorrectly that one supplied ICC profile defines all of Blurb's output conditions, papers and the fact they use differing press technology for differing parts of a book.
I haven't suggested that at all. Correct me on what I've actually written, not what you've assumed I've meant.

I've repeatedly said that using Blurb's profile will give a GENERAL impression of what limitations there are in their processes, I've purposely avoided suggesting that it is anyway a specific or accurate profile for any particular process.
That general impression can be useful to many people.
If it really was so useless as you seem to suggest why would Blurb continue to make it available ? If it was misleading most users it would harm their business.
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2018, 11:58:02 AM »

Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB. I haven't suggested that at all.

Yes you did! Here's your EXACT quote back in 2013 Reply #6:
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Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises.
Rubbish.
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I've repeatedly said that using Blurb's profile will give a GENERAL impression of what limitations there are in their processes
Repeated speculation without a lick of proof, colorimetric or otherwise.
The general impression one should take in this series of posts is you don't understand color management very well. Some others here posting that have called you out absolutely do.
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If it really was so useless as you seem to suggest why would Blurb continue to make it available ?
Because their marketing people are correct in their impression that some of their customers, like you, don't understand color management and soft proofing very well if at all.
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If it was misleading most users it would harm their business.
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument. Or any actual data to back up his misunderstanding.  :(
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:02:27 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2018, 12:26:50 PM »

My goal isn't to get Rhossydd to change his workflow but simply to point out facts to others about how this soft proofing stuff actually works and how it really can't with Blurb. So another data point that will fall on the deaf ears of those that do not make decisions about workflow based on science but rather fiction. I just measured all the papers Blurb provides in their sample book I received, just the papers alone are not even close to GRACol 2006. In fact, the deltaE differences in just the two most different papers are nearly dE4!
One profile for all print processes where the paper alone differs a dE of 4? No! A profile that you cannot pick the rendering intent for soft proofing because not only isn't the supplied profile used but you can't use it for conversion? No! Using the incorrect profile for Out of Gamut preview? No! Soft proofing sRGB (which you must send through LR) for a CMYK process? No!
Forgive me for providing facts that may ruin the day of some posters here who's idea about color management isn't based on color science.
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2018, 02:41:27 PM »

Or any actual data to back up his misunderstanding.
Why do you refuse to deal with the idea of a general impression ? something that can't be backed up with 'actual data'. Two of us have said it's helpful, why contradict that ?

Life's too short to waste printing sample books to measure to provide 'actual data'.
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #46 on: January 17, 2018, 02:45:43 PM »

Why do you refuse to deal with the idea of a general impression ?
It's wrong. Why do you refuse to deal with the colorimetric facts and visual examples that clearly disprove your ideas?
Enough said. You soft proof as you think you should. Lurkers have heard from someone who understands and can provide data to dismiss your soft proofing ideas. Or not; I'm not here to convert people from flat earth concepts but rather to show them with something akin to satellite data, the earth is really round.
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Life's too short to waste printing sample books to measure to provide 'actual data'.
And life is too short wasting time reading recommendations about color management that are simply wrong. But it's your life sir.  ;D
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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2018, 04:46:44 AM »

It's wrong. Why do you refuse to deal with the colorimetric facts and visual examples that clearly disprove your ideas?
Why is the general impression wrong ?
Do you think it's too contrasty ? lacking in saturation ? are the blacks not deep enough ?

Frankly your examples don't prove much at all for the aforementioned reasons. One image isn't even there.
Your example of dE of 4 where comparing papers is interesting as it suggests that side by side you'd see a difference, but in isolation not many people have that level of colour recall.

What disappoints me about this dialogue is your unhelpfulness. Your answer to 'how might my Blurb books look?' seems to be a shrug of your shoulders and say it's impossible to have any idea.
Most people I know who have had books from Blurb would agree that there's a general 'look' to how their photos will appear in print. Blurb's profile suggests that. You're correct in saying it's unlikely to ever be exactly correct because of their range of locations and processes, and I agree totally.

It's bit like someone coming up and saying what's the weather going to be like in Iceland this summer ?
You can't say that on the 17th June it will be 16C with a SE wind speed of 8mph and 3mm of rain.
You can says it's likely to be windy, you'll get rained on and it will be cool not hot. That's likely to be helpful in what clothing to take. That's a general impression that can be helpful.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:02:05 AM by Rhossydd »
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ButchM

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2018, 08:53:56 AM »

... One image isn't even there.


All images shred are showing in my browser. The issue doesn't appear to be universal.
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2018, 09:34:49 AM »

Why is the general impression wrong ?
Your making this hopeless! I've shown visually and colorimetrically how and why it's wrong. Yet you cannot and will not show us why it's right. I'm again not attempting to convince YOU not to follow your silly recommendations. Only your readers who wish to hear from someone who's day job for two decades in the realm of color had stated multiple times that soft proofing without the output profile is a waste of time; unlike like your inability to prove your idea has a lick of usefulness or produces a visual match (or numeric if you could). Please, continue to waste your time but please stop wasting mine and other's here.

As for a few here who can't see the image on their browsers, not my problem, it works just fine and all you need to do is download the Gamut Test File and convert it to sRGB and some CMYK profile (I used Blurb's silly profile) and look at the two side by side. I know for some, that's too much work and I'm sorry you cannot see the images here but this is a screen capture of Safari that clearly illustrates the two images are showing up:


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What disappoints me about this dialogue is your unhelpfulness.

What disappoints me about this dialogue is your inability to examine the facts or provide one piece of data that suggests your idea has merit. It doesn't. I can't think of anyone in the world of color or photography who understands this topic who would ever recommend soft proofing with the wrong profile or sRGB; it's rubbish. It's OK to fool yourself into believing you're using a sound color management workflow but please do not try to fool others!


“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
Søren Kierkegaard
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:07:18 PM by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2018, 09:53:51 AM »


Lastly, what disappoints me about this dialogue is your dishonesty in what you've said you didn't post about sRGB and soft proofing using it for Blurb that when shown to be true, you ignore your own errors:

Back in 2013 Blurb were suggesting using the HP Indigo profile as a guide to help image preparation and wanted all files, including with the PDF to book workflow, to be sRGB. I haven't suggested that at all.
And proof that will fall on deaf ears:

Whilst there may not be a full and perfect proofing standard to work to with Blurb, soft proofing to sRGB will highlight any serious issues and prevent a lot of surprises.
As seen here:

Yes you did! Here's your EXACT quote back in 2013 Reply #6: Rubbish. Repeated speculation without a lick of proof, colorimetric or otherwise.
So yeah, we have no data from you that shows your idea has merit and now we have a paper trail showing you recommended soft proofing to sRGB (by blindly following Blurb's recommendation or dreaming it up, you clearly believe this nonsense and wish others here to believe it too), and we have a paper trail of you being less than honest about it. Sad.

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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2018, 10:02:56 AM »

It's OK to fool yourself into believing you're using a sound color management workflow
Go back and read what I've said. I've never suggested using the Blurb profile to soft proof is a "sound color management workflow" I've said time and time again it's not a perfect answer, just a general help to understand what you might get.

It's impossible to deliver 'actual data' that the soft proofed image looks closer to the book I have on my desk than not using it. It's just disingenuous to suggest that's possible.

You're saying if it's not absolutely perfect, it's no use. I'll disagree with that and get better results by having an idea of what I'll see in my next book.

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showing you recommended soft proofing to sRGB
At the time it was the best route to gaining an impression of what the printed outlook would be like. If you're outputting to sRGB from LR why not soft proof to the destination profile ?
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2018, 10:41:15 AM »

It's impossible to deliver 'actual data' that the soft proofed image looks closer to the book I have on my desk than not using it. It's just disingenuous to suggest that's possible.
Your concept has no proof or merit. You can't find any outside reference (perhaps other than Blurb) that suggests anyone use the WRONG profile for soft proofing.
What is impossible thus far is for your text on soft proofing to be taken seriously because it's been shown to be colorimetrically wrong and visually wrong while you've provided nothing to suggest let alone prove anyone should follow your or Blurb's advise about soft proofing. Enough said; your flat earth color theories are just that and I've shown multiple examples, along with what many lack (common sense) as to why the only profile to use for soft proofing is the profile used for the conversion to the output device. Simple.

I have the perfect answer since you don't: USE the actual ICC profile for soft proofing that defines the actual output and allows you to honor the rendering intent you pick per image for that conversion. IF you can't do that, soft proofing is worthless to those with a lick of common sense or those that have a lick of understanding about color!
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If you're outputting to sRGB from LR why not soft proof to the destination profile ?
BECAUSE IT ISN"T THE DESTINATION PROFILE!
I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.  Over and out.  :o
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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2018, 11:31:13 AM »

OK, so you want numbers.

I remembered that when I was doing some testing for Blurb (you're not the only one here with a professional interest in CM) I popped some test charts at the end of a book. As the vacuum cleaner is broken and I'm sitting here waiting for scripts to arrive I've a spare half hour.

Method
A profiling target was printed on the back page of a Blurb book.
Measured with an i1Pro with GMB Colorpicker record Lab values
Load the same file into PS and assign ProPhoto RGB take Lab values
Covert file to sRGB take Lab values
Convert to Blurb profile take Lab values

Five random patches measured.

Average dE between all patches.
What LR would show you (Prophoto is as close as I have a colourspace for)
PP to printed page dE 69
sRGB to printed page dE 46.8
Blurb profile to printed page dE 19.1

Some patches showed very large dE 122 to 4.5 from PP to the page
Some much less so 1.9 > 1.2
Which is exactly what we would expect.

So real actual measures of printed pages back up the visual impressions that the profile is more useful than not.

No it not the exact destination file we all know that. But it IS close enough to be useful.
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2018, 12:00:41 PM »

I remembered that when I was doing some testing for Blurb (you're not the only one here with a professional interest in CM) I popped some test charts at the end of a book.
Covers and backs are printed on a differing product than the pages. So you're lost already with your testing methodology!
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So real actual measures of printed pages back up the visual impressions that the profile is more useful than not.
Nope, not even close. And not enough to make it useful but by all means, continue to convince yourself it is.
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What LR would show you (Prophoto is as close as I have a colourspace for)
That's wrong too. You're really on a roll here. Tip: When deep in a hole of your own digging, stop digging.
And your indefensible recommendations about soft proofing to sRGB or that sRGB is the destination profile as you posted today is more evidence you're lost here. Do get the last, wrong concept of soft proofing on the pages here if you really must but I'd recommend you just stop digging.
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Some patches showed very large dE 122 to 4.5 from PP to the page
Some much less so 1.9 > 1.2
Which is exactly what we would expect.
You've provided a set of numbers based on a hugely misguided methodology but the wrong numbers also show the massive dE errors if we accept them (which I don't). Nor do I accept what a poor testing methodology you came up with; next time ask an expert how to conduct such testing. You'll save a of time and end up with data that is useful, not fictional.


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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2018, 12:14:04 PM »

Covers and backs are printed on a differing product than the pages. So you're lost already with your testing methodology!
Oh common read it.. back PAGE

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Nor do I accept what a poor testing methodology you came up with; next time ask an expert how to conduct such testing. You'll save a of time and end up with data that is useful, not fictional.
So how would evaluate the difference between a printed page and three different proofs ?
The data isn't 'fictional' it's the data I've just measured. Have you ever actually done anything like this with a Blurb book ? if so, post your numbers.
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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2018, 12:53:58 PM »

Oh common read it.. back PAGE
So how would evaluate the difference between a printed page and three different proofs ?
The data isn't 'fictional' it's the data I've just measured. Have you ever actually done anything like this with a Blurb book ? if so, post your numbers.
Here's what I've done: I spent 4 years with my partner, spending literally hundreds of hours, at multiple locations all over this planet, in shops for one customer (a Fortune 50) setting up Indigo's Nexpress and Xeicon digital presses for color managed output of books like Blurb would love to be able to produce, along with setting up process control procedures to ensure the color from all plants is within a very small dE agreed upon by this big company. That's my day job. What's yours?
I don't need to measure anything to see how far off Blurb's process control is; I've printed the identical book over the course of time and I don't need a Spectrophotometer to see how the output differs from Blurb. So not only like you, do they not have a solution for soft proofing their products, they can't even keep their devices consistent enough to match output over the course of a few months. Another reason why soft proofing to their product, even if they did provide the actual output profile, (which they do not and which you cannot seem to wrap your head around), is pointless. It's a moving target and I'm not the only one here who's seen this result!

You don't have the CMYK profile for their process.
You can't control what Rendering Intent they use (begging the question, which to use for soft proofing if they even could keep their process in-line and supply a profile to reflect this).
You can't send sRGB or soft proof sRGB to a digital press; it's pointless. Open up any ICC profile to soft proof, you'll end up with the same incorrect rendering of what you'll get.
You don't understand the fundamentals of soft proofing; use the actual profile and RI to soft proof and then convert.
You are wasting my time with you lack of acceptance of the points above. And I don't expect you ever will but your audience has data and an opinion from someone who's spent far, far more time color managing digital presses (and probably everything else) than you sir.


Assuming your day job (undefined) isn't say a doctor, do you find your time is well spent at his/her office arguing with them about the subject of medicine you have little if any training in? I suspect you probably do. Again, for your readers, an important consideration when trying to evaluate who's advise to listen to: The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to regularly share it! - The Digital Dog
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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2018, 01:12:04 PM »

What's yours?
Can't be bothered to look at my profile then ?
I've been here for 8 years just on this ID and another before LuLa trashed it.

I had a big respect for your opinions before, but your current dismissal of my visual assessments and your suborn refusal to accept any possibility that a general impression is more useful than total ignorance has made me reassess that.


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andrewrodney

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2018, 01:18:47 PM »

Can't be bothered to look at my profile then ?
Can't be bothered to actually state what it is you do?

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Andrew Rodney
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Rhossydd

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Re: Book Module, blurb and color management
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 01:21:17 PM »

Can't be bothered to actually state what it is you do?
So you can't be bothered to click on the web site icon then ?
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