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Author Topic: B&W profiling  (Read 3968 times)

JeffKohn

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2013, 01:31:03 PM »

Quote
You will need ABW icc profiles, but again the problem here is that you can only use them under a Win7 OS.
It should work under any Windows OS, actually. Not sure what the deal is with MacOS, can't Photoshop use monochrome ICC profiles for soft-proofing on the Mac?

IWC Doppel

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2013, 04:01:50 PM »

Okay a few more tests....

I have been using softproofing in the develop module with a stock Velvet fine art profile. Accepting that this does not match the ABW mode. I have no issue with seeing 10% and a little of the 5% on screen with or without soft proofing and I am still finding it difficult to acheive that with adjustments on paper. I now have 12 A4 test prints  :-[

I can see the principle but I am finding it difficult to get any 5% and 10% visible and this is with unpleasant aggressive adjustments
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IWC Doppel

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2013, 04:04:15 PM »

PS I am a MAC user on snow leopard at present
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Mark D Segal

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2013, 04:42:53 PM »

Mark, you do get a better Dmax and the ABW driver does use less colored ink which could be an issue in terms of print permanency.  .............

Alan

Alan, nothing I've seen in the past conclusively demonstrates deeper maximum black on several baryta papers than the regular Epson driver with a good custom profile can deliver. Nor have I seen conclusive evidence from print permanence data for B&W prints that they will be less prone to deterioration if printed with the ABW option rather than the normal driver. Nor have I noticed in prints any problem with smoothness of grayscale tonal gradation in numerous test images I use, or better still in real photograph where it matters most. Whether these responses are exactly "linear" or not is quite unimportant to me if I can't see any quality hit from just using the most straightforward workflow for making the prints.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2013, 04:43:38 PM »

It should work under any Windows OS, actually. Not sure what the deal is with MacOS, can't Photoshop use monochrome ICC profiles for soft-proofing on the Mac?
There was a long thread on this last year when the Epson driver was changed to deal with the Mac OS and one cannot send a profiled image through the driver in that OS any longer.  You are correct that for now any Win OS up to 7 can use monochrome profiles.  Don't know about Win8
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2013, 04:52:15 PM »

Alan, nothing I've seen in the past conclusively demonstrates deeper maximum black on several baryta papers than the regular Epson driver with a good custom profile can deliver. Nor have I seen conclusive evidence from print permanence data for B&W prints that they will be less prone to deterioration if printed with the ABW option rather than the normal driver. Nor have I noticed in prints any problem with smoothness of grayscale tonal gradation in numerous test images I use, or better still in real photograph where it matters most. Whether these responses are exactly "linear" or not is quite unimportant to me if I can't see any quality hit from just using the most straightforward workflow for making the prints.
Certainly the Dmax is higher with ABW than with the regular Epson driver.  I measured this with all the papers I regularly print on (i1 pro measuring a maximum black patch).  I know that you have printed on IGFS.  With the normal driver I get a Dmax of 2.25 and this bumps up to 2.48 with ABW. It's measurable but whether it makes a significant difference is up to the viewer's eyes.  Eric Chan covers this issue as well.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2013, 04:53:11 PM »

There was a long thread on this last year when the Epson driver was changed to deal with the Mac OS and one cannot send a profiled image through the driver in that OS any longer.  .........

Alan - I'm confused about what you mean here. I'm on Mac OS 10.6.8 and every image I send through LR to print has an embedded profile, and it all works just fine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Mark D Segal

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2013, 05:00:32 PM »

Certainly the Dmax is higher with ABW than with the regular Epson driver.  I measured this with all the papers I regularly print on (i1 pro measuring a maximum black patch).  I know that you have printed on IGFS.  With the normal driver I get a Dmax of 2.25 and this bumps up to 2.48 with ABW. It's measurable but whether it makes a significant difference is up to the viewer's eyes.  Eric Chan covers this issue as well.

Yes, I read all of Eric's excellent contributions on this subject quite some time ago. All I can tell you is that when I LOOKED at the same prints made by ABW and the regular driver for my 4900 review, it was very hard to tell any difference, and I had a tonal range that went from zero shadow detail upward. So by measurements I don't doubt what you report - but, whether it makes a substantial photographic difference is another story.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

Mark D Segal

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2013, 05:01:57 PM »

Okay a few more tests....

I have been using softproofing in the develop module with a stock Velvet fine art profile. ............
I can see the principle but I am finding it difficult to get any 5% and 10% visible .........

This outcome for that paper is completely un-surprising.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

IWC Doppel

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2013, 05:48:09 PM »

I have read all of Eric Chan's excellent notes and there are a few areas where the updates have not filtered through, so to speak. I know with MAC and LR4 I can't experiment with his ABW profiles, the best balance I have so far is to adjust contrast and brightness in the LR printer module and add 5% shadow tonality. I am keen to get the majority of the image looking right as I endeavour to recover shadow detail, if I also add a little 5-10 in the develop module, that's as far as I can go before it looks wrong.

It's relatively cheap paper, but it does have nice deep blacks. Fortunately HFA museum etching is better regarding shadow detail.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2013, 05:57:44 PM »

Alan - I'm confused about what you mean here. I'm on Mac OS 10.6.8 and every image I send through LR to print has an embedded profile, and it all works just fine.
You cannot use ABW profiles on a Mac OS machine.  The ABW driver will not accept them.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2013, 06:08:38 PM »

Ah OK - you didn't limit the statement to *ABW* profiles so I thought you were making another point. That's clear now.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml

IWC Doppel

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Re: B&W profiling
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2013, 02:10:20 AM »

I have spoken to Fotospeed and they are going to provide a bespoke icc for free  :)

It will be interesting to see how a colour icc used for B&W compares to ABW. I'll keep you all posted
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