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Author Topic: DNG Settings  (Read 13677 times)

Gerry Walden

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DNG Settings
« on: December 18, 2012, 06:55:57 AM »

PLEASE can somebody tell me which settings from Adobe DNG converter or ACR I can use on my .raf files to enable C1 to read them. I have tried everything I can think of.

Thanks!
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Gerry Walden
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2012, 08:53:37 AM »

Use an older format of DNG - certainly not 1.4 with stuff like fast load data. But be prepared to find that C1's support of DNG is a bit of a joke.

John
« Last Edit: December 18, 2012, 11:28:01 AM by johnbeardy »
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Ronald NZ Tan

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2012, 01:00:29 PM »

I agree with you John.

I like DNGs as a format, simply because the file size is smaller in comparison to the native CR2 (30D, 7D) and NEF (D40X). Smaller file size means backing up to an external drive is faster. Since 2011, I went and converted all my native CR2s and NEFs to DNG. I "sort of" regretted now, because some of the RAW functionality in C1PRO no longer works on these DNGs. The ability to lens correct distortion or to fix chromatic aberrations.

The DNGs I am referring to are created *using* the Adobe DNG Converter and not some 3rd party software. Canon 7D, 30D, and Nikon D40X are fully supported camera models from C1PRO since version 5.


Use an older format of DNG - certainly not 1.4 with stuff like fast load data. But be prepared to find that C1's support of DNG is a bit of a joke.

John
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2012, 01:22:46 PM »

The phrase I've heard from PhaseOne is "two doors". If it's a raw file, it goes through the door where it'll get the full benefits of C1 treatment, but if it's a DNG it'll go through the other door and be given a generic DNG treatment - which is pretty lame. Contrast that with Aperture which treats DNGs from supported cameras just like the corresponding proprietary raw file. And that's Aperture from Apple, the very home of "not invented here"....

John

Alan Smallbone

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2012, 01:35:32 PM »

Basically it won't work the way you want it to... see the 5th post in this thread...

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=13605

Alan
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Alan Smallbone
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Ronald NZ Tan

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2012, 04:35:25 PM »

This the following what you're referring to, Alan? When I convert my CR2s and NEFs from my aforementioned cameras, the mosaic raw data are transferred to the DNG. I am not using any "lossy" or "linear" options in the conversion via Adobe DNG Converter software. I would like PhaseONE to fully support DNG like it is a RAW format. When I upgrade to C1PRO 7, I have DSLR lens that C1PRO7 support and shows up in the Lens tab. Because I converted the CR2 into the DNG, I no longer could use the version 7 specific lens support to optically correct the distortion and chromatic aberration.


Quote
We are working on this and will have a compatible version out very soon.
The DNG files which you convert for this camera is becomes linear DNGs which we do not support, we only support true RAW DNGs

Basically it won't work the way you want it to... see the 5th post in this thread...

http://forum.phaseone.com/En/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=13605

Alan
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Gerry Walden

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2012, 04:58:45 PM »

Thanks everyone. You have all confirmed what I suspected. I guess I will just have to stick to LR/PS until C1 gets its head around the Fuji files.

Gerry
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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 03:43:20 AM »

This the following what you're referring to, Alan? When I convert my CR2s and NEFs from my aforementioned cameras, the mosaic raw data are transferred to the DNG. I am not using any "lossy" or "linear" options in the conversion via Adobe DNG Converter software. I would like PhaseONE to fully support DNG like it is a RAW format. When I upgrade to C1PRO 7, I have DSLR lens that C1PRO7 support and shows up in the Lens tab. Because I converted the CR2 into the DNG, I no longer could use the version 7 specific lens support to optically correct the distortion and chromatic aberration.



Ronald,

Its a true fact that if you want to squeeze the best out of your files in Capture One, then converting to DNG is not the way to go currently.

If your only motivation of converting to DNG is to save a bit of disk space, then I would argue the benefits of staying with the native RAW far outweigh that.

Especially as storage is so cheap.

David
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David Grover
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 05:05:36 AM »

Ronald, I would agree with David that saving cheap space is not a major reason to switch to DNG - it's more a nice side effect. There are far better reasons to switch to DNG for your main workflow, and you might just keep proprietary raw files as an extra backup and for programs like CaptureOne that fail to handle DNGs sensibly*.

John

* One might argue that doing so would broaden C1's appeal....

Ronald NZ Tan

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 10:47:28 PM »

Hi David,

It is fact that less data translates to faster backup times. My entire appeal for PhaseONE to fully support RAW DNG (containing mosaiced data) is that even a RAW DNG will be treated like native RAW file.

Because all my files are RAW DNGs converted via the official Adobe DNG Converter, I can't use most of the tools in the Lens Tab.

If I think carefully, I "sort of" regretted converting my native RAWs into DNGs. When I read that C1PRO supported DNG, I had assumed that my DNGs will have full access to the RAW processing of C1PRO. I only found out that once the DNGs were converted successfully AND I extirpated my native RAWs, it wasn't so.

Re-summarizing, I feel PhaseONE could win more souls from the Adobe crowd, if the RAW DNGs will be equally treated like the native RAWs.

Right now, I am not at all enthusiastic about upgrading to C1PRO7 because I could not take advantage of the automatic DSLR lens that are supported for native RAW files. I use EF 50mm f/1.8 II a lot and this lens has a profile in C1PRO7. I converted my CR2 into RAW DNG and I cannot do any lens fixes in C1PRO7.

???

I do hope the request is seriously considered, because the DNG format is here to stay. DNG has been around for a while too and not invented six months ago. From what I have read, the DNG is fully open and supported by Adobe.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 10:55:06 PM by Ronald Nyein Zaw Tan »
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Ronald NZ Tan

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2012, 10:54:51 PM »

PS . . .

I would like to piggy back that C1PRO7 should utilize the "Embed Fast Load" previews of the DNG. When I convert my RAWs into RAW DNG (with mosaiced data), I use full JPEG preview and "Embed Fast Load Data."

With the help of OpenCL, I think that by tapping into the Embed Fast Load in RAW DNG, C1PRO7 should be flying.
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2012, 02:51:12 AM »

Re-summarizing, I feel PhaseONE could win more souls from the Adobe crowd, if the RAW DNGs will be equally treated like the native RAWs..
+1

David Grover / Phase One

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2012, 06:51:42 AM »

Hi David,

It is fact that less data translates to faster backup times. My entire appeal for PhaseONE to fully support RAW DNG (containing mosaiced data) is that even a RAW DNG will be treated like native RAW file.

Because all my files are RAW DNGs converted via the official Adobe DNG Converter, I can't use most of the tools in the Lens Tab.

If I think carefully, I "sort of" regretted converting my native RAWs into DNGs. When I read that C1PRO supported DNG, I had assumed that my DNGs will have full access to the RAW processing of C1PRO. I only found out that once the DNGs were converted successfully AND I extirpated my native RAWs, it wasn't so.

Re-summarizing, I feel PhaseONE could win more souls from the Adobe crowd, if the RAW DNGs will be equally treated like the native RAWs.

Right now, I am not at all enthusiastic about upgrading to C1PRO7 because I could not take advantage of the automatic DSLR lens that are supported for native RAW files. I use EF 50mm f/1.8 II a lot and this lens has a profile in C1PRO7. I converted my CR2 into RAW DNG and I cannot do any lens fixes in C1PRO7.

???

I do hope the request is seriously considered, because the DNG format is here to stay. DNG has been around for a while too and not invented six months ago. From what I have read, the DNG is fully open and supported by Adobe.

Hi Ronald,

Right now I would still argue that it is a poor choice to convert to DNG when you lose so much in the possibilities for image quality.

If you had to decide on where to spend our resources would it be to squeeze more and more quality out of supported raw files, or go on a path to improve DNG compatibility?

I can add that we receive very very few requests concerning DNG support.

What is the difference (typically) in file size from your CR2's to DNG?  How many images per week do you capture?

D

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David Grover
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digitaldog

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2012, 12:23:18 PM »

Right now I would still argue that it is a poor choice to convert to DNG when you lose so much in the possibilities for image quality.

Lose exactly what? I'm not talking about lossy DNG.
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Andrew Rodney
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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2012, 09:28:07 PM »

Consider this a request then David.  ;)

I am a Leaf user, and a Canon user (and a GX680 user, couldn't resist) and would like to add a camera to my studio that shoots DNG (Leica S) one of the things putting me off is the SUCKY DNG support. I can cope with hot folder tethered shooting, although that is crippled at the moment, I have submitted a support case suggesting a workable fix, but I won't hold my breath. The only place using DNG is a poor choice it seems is in C1.  :'(

Kind regards,
Jason Berge.

Hi Ronald,

Right now I would still argue that it is a poor choice to convert to DNG when you lose so much in the possibilities for image quality.

If you had to decide on where to spend our resources would it be to squeeze more and more quality out of supported raw files, or go on a path to improve DNG compatibility?

I can add that we receive very very few requests concerning DNG support.

What is the difference (typically) in file size from your CR2's to DNG?  How many images per week do you capture?

D


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Jason Berge
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EsbenHR

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 02:48:10 AM »

Consider this a request then David.  ;)

I am a Leaf user, and a Canon user (and a GX680 user, couldn't resist) and would like to add a camera to my studio that shoots DNG (Leica S) one of the things putting me off is the SUCKY DNG support. I can cope with hot folder tethered shooting, although that is crippled at the moment, I have submitted a support case suggesting a workable fix, but I won't hold my breath. The only place using DNG is a poor choice it seems is in C1.  :'(

The DNG support in C1 only SUCK if you converted a native RAW to an alien DNG file. C1 also SUCK if you converted the file to a TIFF. Cameras that produces native DNGs are supported as well as any other camera.

Contrary to what most people seems to think, DNG is a moving target tied to Adobes processing chain. The converted files have an unspecified relationship to the original file and camera settings.

We don't want to implement support for a camera multiple times, which would be needed to have "nice" support for a RAW file converted to DNG by a random version of a tool. DNG is a least common denominator that makes it easy to use (admittedly nice) tools and libraries from Adobe. When you want to squeeze the best out of a given camera, using a non-native representation of a file is, in my opinion, not a smart move.
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2012, 04:05:28 AM »

Contrary to what most people seems to think, DNG is a moving target tied to Adobes processing chain. The converted files have an unspecified relationship to the original file and camera settings.

We don't want to implement support for a camera multiple times, which would be needed to have "nice" support for a RAW file converted to DNG by a random version of a tool.
To be honest, it doesn't change that frequently, is accompanied by copious documentation, and the spec version is publicly displayed in each image's metadata. We're talking about DNG, not FUD....

digitaldog

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2012, 09:34:41 AM »

To be honest, it doesn't change that frequently, is accompanied by copious documentation, and the spec version is publicly displayed in each image's metadata. We're talking about DNG, not FUD....

Exactly! I was as well under the impression that DNG has a spec that fully describes how to read or write that format. Same with TIFF. Or PSD etc.

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The DNG support in C1 only SUCK if you converted a native RAW to an alien DNG file.

What is an alien DNG?

Quote
Contrary to what most people seems to think, DNG is a moving target tied to Adobes processing chain

How so? How is it tied solely to Adobe processing chain?
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Andrew Rodney
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tho_mas

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2012, 10:56:01 AM »

What is an alien DNG?
A native DNG is a DNG created in camera. So it's the original RAW file the respective camera writes to the card.
An alien DNG is a DNG created for instance through the DNG converter or exported from Lightroom or other softwares.

Here is a native Leica-M9 DNG file from imaging-resource.

I've converted it with the latest DNG Converter (version 7.3.0.71).
I've tried several DNG versions (version 2 all the way to version 7.1 … basically they all look the same and have the same file size. So below I only refer to the V7.1 conversion):

Attachment 1 shows the prefs used for the conversion and below a screenshot from the finder showing that the native DNG size from the camera is 18.3MB while the converted version is only 10.2MB (with full size JPEG embedded it would be around 12MB). I don't think the reduced file size comes only from compression. I assume some proprietary data has been skipped.

Attachment 2 shows the Metadata C1 is reading from the files. At least the lens info has been altered.

Attachment 3 shows the native camera DNG file (on the left) compared to the converted DNG file opened in Capture One.
The colors are very different. For the native DNG file C1 applies a Leica M9 input profile while for the converted version it applies a "generic DNG" input profile. If I would assign the Leica M9 input profile to the converted DNG file colors would look totally weird.

Attachment 4 shows that the converted version also looks a bit harsh compared to the native camera DNG (at least when the same sharpening settings are applied)

In Adobe Softwares you won't notice any difference between the files, of course.

So…
1.) quite obviously Capture One handles DNG really well - as long as they are native (camera-) DNGs, so unaltered RAW files.
2.) Capture One handles converted DNGs ("alien DNGs") pretty weak - even converted DNGs that originally come from a camera that utilizes DNG as its native RAW format

So either Capture One can't read certain proprietary data from converted DNGs … or the respective data is simply not contained anymore in the converted DNG.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 11:01:09 AM by tho_mas »
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john beardsworth

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Re: DNG Settings
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »

So either Capture One can't read certain proprietary data from converted DNGs … or the respective data is simply not contained anymore in the converted DNG.
Or "won't"....
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