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Author Topic: Connecticut Tragedy  (Read 55556 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #180 on: December 19, 2012, 10:28:35 am »

Rob, ever thought of an alarm system for your house? Or even motion-sensor lights outside/inside? Much simpler than fiddling with a gun in the dark (and risking shooting yourself in the process).

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #181 on: December 19, 2012, 10:35:10 am »

Russ and Steve, as for armed teachers... How many armed guards managed to stop a bank robbery?

RSL

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #182 on: December 19, 2012, 11:04:36 am »

Rob, ever thought of an alarm system for your house? Or even motion-sensor lights outside/inside? Much simpler than fiddling with a gun in the dark (and risking shooting yourself in the process).

How about a rundown on your extensive experience with firearms, Slobodan?
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dmerger

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #183 on: December 19, 2012, 11:21:26 am »

Bart, I appreciate your thoughtful reply.  I can’t say I agree 100% with everything you wrote, but almost. I’d just like to add another category of people with a vested interest in continuing the war on drugs – drug dealers.  If drugs were ever decriminalized, the drug dealers would be out of an extremely lucrative business.
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Rob C

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #184 on: December 19, 2012, 11:27:21 am »

Rob, ever thought of an alarm system for your house? Or even motion-sensor lights outside/inside? Much simpler than fiddling with a gun in the dark (and risking shooting yourself in the process).



Taking you seriously on the first point: what service would the alarm render me? I'd still have to face whoever came in. Alarms go off here all over the place; it's the dampness and nobody pays them any heed. Most folks I know who had them disconnected them in the end.

As for motion sensors: we are in the country just outside the town; cats, rats, God alone knows what else march their merry march over the terrace each night and spend part of it leaping up onto the tables and/or chairs, which I have to wipe down each and every morning should I even think of eating at home... the alarm would be going off all night! (Thank goodness the neighbours don't have guns! ;-) )

I wouldn't imagine that your second fear for me would happen: I'd opt for a 9mm Paulo B. and not have something with a long barrel, such as with a shotgun or rife, over which to trip!

Rob C

jeremypayne

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #185 on: December 19, 2012, 11:40:10 am »

There's a disconnect somewhere.. didn't understand that at all.

Oh there's a disconnect ... for sure.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #186 on: December 19, 2012, 11:48:52 am »

Legalize drugs and kill two birds with one stone*: drug trade and gun violence.

* Sorry bird lovers for the politically incorrect metaphor

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #187 on: December 19, 2012, 11:55:08 am »

How about a rundown on your extensive experience with firearms, Slobodan?

Russ, I already provided it: extensive it isn't, but I said earlier that I was shooting with an AK-47 and military rifles, and quite successfully so, both in target practice and disassembling/assembling it.

I just do not see the need to keep an AK-47 under my pillow as a civilian, thus my gun skills are probably getting rusty.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #188 on: December 19, 2012, 12:02:00 pm »



Stricter penalties do not reduce crime. The US system is the living proof of that, look at the growing number of the prison populations. For instance the death penalty doesn't prevent individuals to do what they do, because many of them have mental issues and suffer from a reduced sense of empathy. Others just have inadequate legal support, and are killed unjustly anyway in the name of the people.

Long term imprisonment (getting them off the street) creates a false sense of security, because when they come back they're better criminals than before, and with even less of a prospect of making something of their lives. Besides it's a very costly proposition having to house and feed an increasing number of people, especially when it doesn't really solve anything. It's a symptomatic reaction, as usual, not a solution.

...

There are of course also many parties that benefit from that situation, (gun) lobbyists, defense industry, politicians (not touching sensitive issues is easier than addressing them, and better for re-election). Governing by the FUD principle is easier to get things done, even if they are no solution (remember Iraq, WMDs and all lies at a huge (personal and collective) cost to so many Americans and others, good for Halliburton and the defence industry though). Symptomatic reactions ...



There's another constituency who benefits that seems to fly below the radar (so far) and that's the private prison industry: "http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/06/23/251363/cca-geogroup-prison-industry". I have no info on the credibility of that site, it's simply the first one I found and seemed to illustrate my suspicions about this industry. Knowing how "money talks", I am extremely cynical about their participation. It seems like such a convenient set-up, bury people in the system, the longer you keep them there the more money you make, and since the place is a private business, you can easily avoid the public eye.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #189 on: December 19, 2012, 12:02:22 pm »



Taking you seriously on the first point: what service would the alarm render me? I'd still have to face whoever came in. Alarms go off here all over the place; it's the dampness and nobody pays them any heed. Most folks I know who had them disconnected them in the end...

Are you saying that a burglar would calmly continue while alarms are blaring and all lights inside and outside go on!? Seriously?

Good alarm systems (at least here) are connected directly to a monitoring center which would then alert the police. It would take some balls on the burglar side to wait to see if the police shows up.

Additionally, given that you consider guns to be primarily a deterrent, how about acquiring a plastic one? I am sure that at today's stage of technology, they might even come with a cocking sound built-in.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #190 on: December 19, 2012, 12:06:41 pm »

There's another constituency who benefits that seems to fly below the radar (so far) and that's the private prison industry...

There was that one judge who was sending juvenile offenders to long prison sentences for extremely minor offenses, like peeing in public. Turns out it was his little side business, generating hundreds of thousands [wrong, see below] for him over the years in bribes from... well, prison industry. Was caught and sentenced.

EDIT: I edited what I first wrote above: millions of dollars in bribes... not wanting to believe it was that lucrative. Then I checked, and it turns out my initial memory was right: 2.8 million! He was also sentenced to... 28 years. I guess the other judge had a sense of humor (like ten years for every million).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 12:18:23 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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dmerger

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #191 on: December 19, 2012, 12:37:45 pm »

Slobodan, I was also going to comment on that terrible judge.  28 years seem much too lenient of a sentence. 

There are other equally distressing reports of abuse of the private, for profit, prison system, where the prisons get paid a flat rate, so they try some despicable methods to cut costs, including denying even basic medical care resulting in needless deaths.  Unfortunately, U.S. federal, state and local governments increasingly are turning over traditional government services to private, for profit, companies.  This trend has resulted in corruption, bloated costs, and poor services in too many cases.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #192 on: December 19, 2012, 01:14:17 pm »

... The underlying problem is a cultural one, and that's a hard one to change!...

Bart, not at all disagreeing with you, just adding a few thoughts:

There were many things that were culturally thought of as American as apple pie AT SOME POINT:

- slavery
- segregation
- lynching
- inter-racial marriage ban
- women's voting
- white presidents

to list just a few. They are gone. Hopefully, clinging to guns might as well, sooner than expected.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 01:26:20 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #193 on: December 19, 2012, 01:43:16 pm »

Slobodan, I was also going to comment on that terrible judge.  28 years seem much too lenient of a sentence.  

There are other equally distressing reports of abuse of the private, for profit, prison system, where the prisons get paid a flat rate, so they try some despicable methods to cut costs, including denying even basic medical care resulting in needless deaths.  Unfortunately, U.S. federal, state and local governments increasingly are turning over traditional government services to private, for profit, companies.  This trend has resulted in corruption, bloated costs, and poor services in too many cases.

...bloated costs...

The irony is too much. Private/public "partnerships" are supposed reduce costs, be more efficient, cut taxes, blah, blah. What, is there another private prison next door that "competes" with it so as to keep prices low? How can people keep falling for the same snake oil, the bs isn't even subtle.

Last year, the federal government here in Canada floated some press releases (or leaked some documents, can't remember) about looking into private prisons for Canada. There was no media interest that I detected. But at the time, I remember thinking, there's lobbiests at work here. I was right. Some weeks/months later a journalist had uncovered some data about how much the prison lobby was spending in Canada. It's all as predictable as sunrise.

My apologies, I'm getting way off topic, I'll stop.
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dmerger

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #194 on: December 19, 2012, 02:29:45 pm »

How can people keep falling for the same snake oil, the bs isn't even subtle.

One tactic is to price the initial contract low so it appears to save the government money, but lo and behold, it's not long before "unexpected" costs require a significant price increase.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #195 on: December 19, 2012, 04:17:24 pm »

Seems at least someone is taking Russ' and Steve's advice (on arming schools) seriously:

An 11-year-old Utah boy brought a gun to school to protect himself from a Newtown-style attack

Steve Weldon

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #196 on: December 20, 2012, 02:08:53 am »

Then why deny yourself at this advanced stage of life ..... go back home.


Thank you for your concern.  I did return home about 18-20 months ago and an readjusting.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #197 on: December 20, 2012, 02:14:31 am »

Steve,

I fear we will go on with this forever, with no real resolution. I don't think it matters who I have arrested or whether I carried a gun.

I think the bottom line is we've had a different upbringing and have lived in different countries with some great differences in perspectives, even though our countries are side by side. I happen to be uncomfortable with a proliferation of firearms and have been lucky to live in a society where they are not as central to things as in your country. And you have been quite eloquent and clear on your thoughts and position.

Let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

Marv
Marv -

I agree with all of this.  It's startling how different our countries can be when as you say they're side by side, but historically there are many such examples.  North/South Korea, East/West Germany, USA/Mexico, the list is long.  I still like to think Canada is our closest cousin who we do the most trade with and we try the most with.  Australia in my mind is like our distant cousin.. I find Australians have many of the core characteristics of Americans and during my time overseas my best friends were Aussies and not Americans..

I fear the biggest difference between us is Canada's closer association with the UK and France.. but we'd welcome you back to the fold any time.. ;o)

Thanks for the discussion Marv.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #198 on: December 20, 2012, 02:27:54 am »

You are trying to spin this. "To protect life" is a just a euphemism for killing. The first and foremost purpose is to kill. If that results in saving something more valuable, or is otherwise justifiable, that is secondary. You first have to kill, in order to protect.

As for what cops think, they are trained to shoot to kill, right? Two pops in the chest, just to be sure (because one may not be enough). And, for the sake of mine and the rest of the public safety, I hope they don't get too poetic and teary-eyed about it (as in "I'm saving those poor folks "), but coldly efficient (as in  "I'm killing that SOB").

1.  No, it really is not.  Sometimes it turns out that way which is one of the terrible truths those who choose a law enforcement of military career must deal with.  Without such experience you might not be able to fully understand our mindset.  But as a member of the human race I can only tell you that killing is the absolute last choice.

2.  No, we are not trained to kill.  Not as law enforcement.  We're trained to stop.  This is what's in our head when acting. Another mindset, but "stopping" someone who is doing others harm can take many different forms.  We're given great discretion and we're selected for our ability to take in detail, process information, and effect a solution.   Not everyone can do it.  The academy was a big surprise for me, I assumed everyone could do what I regarded as relatively simple tasks.  But I watched guys wash out who I really admired because they could not, or would not make the required choices.  To be honest, from experience and talking to those who have killed.. it came as a surprise.  Most felt they let the departmen down.  There's a process of thought that happens milliseconds after you pull the trigger  which takes you from extreme guilt and self-doubt, through the reporting, through the review board, and in a way thank god for these processes because they help to remove that doubt or at least help you feel okay with your truth..

Those who don't like law enforcement.. and most of those assume the worst mindset.. probably will never understand because understanding is not in the best interest of their beliefs.  But contrary what you might want to believe. "stopping" is what we're thinking while "killing" is the absolute last thing we want to do  If you ever spoke in depth with someone who has, you'll soon learn it takes more out of the average guy than they're capable of giving.
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Steve Weldon

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Re: Connecticut Tragedy
« Reply #199 on: December 20, 2012, 02:33:04 am »

The "legit uses" in this example actually are examples of guns being used, as designed, for killing -- killing game animals and killing dangerous wildlife.
You are quite right sir.   And all this time I thought you were concerned with killing people.

Guns, by design, are a quick and easy way to kill -- both deer and people.

Some are.  Most I think are designed around recreational shooting and little thought goes into them as killing devices.  The entire design is about the class of competition they're built for, the type of recreation (plinking, shooting clays, cans, rocks, etc.. there's nothing like a finely made .22 semi-auto on a nice fall day as you plink away at whatever you can find.. the ends of twigs, stones, big leaves..

Can I ask, you haven't been exposed to shooting as a child and beyond?  You never went out with your father and enjoyed an afternoon together shooting targets?   Your mindset is that of someone who's greater experience with firearms comes from the television set of movie house..   Sad.

I'll tell you what.  If you're in the area lets get together for an afternoon and lets have some fun?
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