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Author Topic: The end of medium format ?  (Read 47485 times)

TMARK

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #140 on: December 07, 2012, 09:39:10 AM »

You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
- doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them

Doug,

T-Max in the Blad or RZ, or sheet film!

But if I were to shoot that project digitally with the parameters who suggest, I'd do it with the biggest brightest viewfinder I could find, with the biggest chip.  A Credo 80 on an AFi or RZ or Hx or a 501cm. 

T
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TMARK

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #141 on: December 07, 2012, 09:46:17 AM »

Simon,

The D800e is brilliant.  I do, however, enjoy using an MF camera, mainly for the viewfinder.  So if I were shooting a slow paced project, and shooting it digitally, I would go for the biggest VF I could find. 

My ONLY gripe with the D800e (after I worked out my color issues) is that I wish it had a larger viewfinder.  Not that the 800's VF is bad at all, I just wish it were larger.

T

Hi Doug,

I have tried to keep completely out of this debate but your comments below


You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them


Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon

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TMARK

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #142 on: December 07, 2012, 09:49:59 AM »

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon


I sold my Aptus.  I would have kept it if it were V mount.  I will more than likely get a V mount back of the older generation for fun, for a different look, and I believe there is a V to RZ adapter. 
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Doug Peterson

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #143 on: December 07, 2012, 10:03:47 AM »

Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Sounds like a man who knows TMark pretty well :-)*. As the lawyers say, never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

TMark would prefer to work with MF when it is both practical and the photographic task is within MF's areas of strength (e.g. lower ISO, time to get it right etc). He of course uses his dSLR when that is a better choice or when practicality dictates it.

My overall point is that personal preference should never be under stated as a motivation to use one camera or another. If someone likes working with a given camera and it helps them execute their vision, increase their business, or just plain enjoy the process of image making more - then that is all that should really matter to that shooter. Nobody should get worked up that someone else prefers a different tool. If a given camera fit me well, and not one other person in the whole world liked it, I'd still be happy with it.

You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?

*At least as well as one can gleam from posts; we still haven't met up for a beer (how bout it TMark?)

Doug Peterson

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #144 on: December 07, 2012, 10:06:20 AM »

I sold my Aptus.  I would have kept it if it were V mount.  I will more than likely get a V mount back of the older generation for fun, for a different look, and I believe there is a V to RZ adapter. 

Indeed. V mount backs work great with RZ. You're welcome to reach out by email and let us know that you want to be informed as relevant backs come through as pre-owned.

Steve Hendrix

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #145 on: December 07, 2012, 10:10:53 AM »

Hi Doug,

I have tried to keep completely out of this debate but your comments below


You have both.

When you have a project that meets the following qualifications which do you use?
- doesn't require high ISO or video
- is personally important to you
* doesn't have a tight deadline, and you have the time to do things the way you want to do them


Well that just floored me and personally sounds like a man clutching at straws.

I own a Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit and a Nikon D800E & D800 and I would be using the Nikons on any project be personal or for a client.

I have made a packed with myself that if I donít use my Leaf Aptus75/Mamiya RZ kit in the next six months its all going on Ebay as my Sinar P2 kit and Mamiya 645AFDII kit have already gone.

Cheers

Simon



While there are many who no longer shoot medium or large format at all and exclusively utilize a 35mm DSLR, there are others who desire and even require using something different as well. While Doug's examples may not have rang true with you, I think his meaning is that a photographer may choose a different camera for different conditions, depending on those conditions and the applicability of a given camera system. I believe that has been a traditional approach for photographers for many, many years.

While perhaps the crafting of his message was not perfect, I understand his meaning and am not thrown by it. The idea that one is clutching at straws to desperately try to convey a reason to shoot medium format seems kind of extreme, but I can understand your reaction, given the set of conditions that were listed. The fact is - photographers who choose to use medium format do so for many reasons, rational ones, logical ones, even emotional ones. In an odd way, I think emotion is a key factor in equipment use.

Edit - I mean, not actually in an odd way, I think it is prevalent; odd only in that it doesn't get discussed much, nor can a manufacturer easily present it as a feature, but the emotional response to products is naturally very substantial.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:22:22 AM by Steve Hendrix »
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design_freak

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #146 on: December 07, 2012, 10:11:38 AM »


You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?

*At least as well as one can gleam from posts; we still haven't met up for a beer (how bout it TMark?)

Maybe because the value that can be achieved is not an incentive to do so...
Some people have a fondness for their tools, even if they do not use them anymore  ;)
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Best regards,
DF

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Guy Mancuso

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #147 on: December 07, 2012, 11:27:06 AM »


Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.

 

Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.
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design_freak

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #148 on: December 07, 2012, 12:08:22 PM »

I'm sorry, but I think prices should be much higher. More money on R & D = better products. It is not always cheaper product means higher profits.
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Best regards,
DF

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gerald.d

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #149 on: December 07, 2012, 12:12:57 PM »

Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.

Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #150 on: December 07, 2012, 12:28:27 PM »

Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik



Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?

design_freak

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #151 on: December 07, 2012, 12:40:57 PM »

Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik




As I understand
PhaseOne, (PhaseOne, MamiyaLeaf), Hasselblad, Leica
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DF

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FredBGG

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #152 on: December 07, 2012, 12:50:20 PM »


You say you'd prefer your D800/E for all personal and client shooting. If that is true you should sell your Aptus 75 today. My assumption is that you haven't done so because for any frustration you have right now you still enjoy shooting with it more than with your D800. But if there is no (or rarely) circumstance in which that is true you should not own it; it's not the right tool for you. Why do you have it?


That's really an un called for comment. Typical attitude of holier than thou "we know better" attitude of some MF dealers.
Part of the pattern of criticizing and demeaning working photographers that are moving away from MF.

I can think of many logical reasons to keep the camera for a few more months.
Maybe he is still getting familiar with the D800.
Maybe he has only one D800 for now. Having a backup is smart. Might be holding out for a D4x...
Maybe better to sell his used gear next fiscal year
Maybe he is just being responsibly cautious.
Maybe he does not need the cash quickly... he seems to be quite a busy photographer ;)
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Guy Mancuso

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #153 on: December 07, 2012, 12:51:34 PM »

Not sure I fully understand what you're saying here.

Are you claiming that the existence of a MFDB market is keeping the price of 35mm DSLR's in check?

Sure just like 4/3rds gear. The more companies pouring out products in the photo market regardless of format N and C have to stay competitive to the market. Bottom line its all about market share and shareholder value. If John and Sally are buying MF and Susan and Jeff are buying 4/3rds it does eat into classic 35mm DSLR market since they are going outside of it and not buying Canon or Nikon. US as consumers WANT more products and companies in the market as it keeps the market competitive.


Oh and I forgot Pentax and Sinar, my bad. Phase , Leaf and Mamiya are really under 1 company Phase One( they serve different markets). Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 12:53:48 PM by Guy Mancuso »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #154 on: December 07, 2012, 01:18:13 PM »

That's really an un called for comment. Typical attitude of holier than thou "we know better" attitude of some MF dealers.
Part of the pattern of criticizing and demeaning working photographers that are moving away from MF.

I can think of many logical reasons to keep the camera for a few more months.
Maybe he is still getting familiar with the D800.
Maybe he has only one D800 for now. Having a backup is smart. Might be holding out for a D4x...
Maybe better to sell his used gear next fiscal year
Maybe he is just being responsibly cautious.
Maybe he does not need the cash quickly... he seems to be quite a busy photographer ;)

LOL, you're the greatest Fred  :-*

gerald.d

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #155 on: December 07, 2012, 01:33:06 PM »

Sure just like 4/3rds gear. The more companies pouring out products in the photo market regardless of format N and C have to stay competitive to the market. Bottom line its all about market share and shareholder value. If John and Sally are buying MF and Susan and Jeff are buying 4/3rds it does eat into classic 35mm DSLR market since they are going outside of it and not buying Canon or Nikon. US as consumers WANT more products and companies in the market as it keeps the market competitive.


Oh and I forgot Pentax and Sinar, my bad. Phase , Leaf and Mamiya are really under 1 company Phase One( they serve different markets). Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too

I don't buy that argument at all. Was it earlier in this thread that someone was explaining how a single Canon factory would churn out more product, value, and profit, in a single day than the entire MFDB industry in a year?

Claiming that the existence of an MFDB market keeps the price of Canons and Nikons in check is akin to claiming that Toyota consider the price of the Bugatti Veyron when setting the price of the Prius.

MFT is a totally different argument.
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FredBGG

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #156 on: December 07, 2012, 01:38:27 PM »

Contax really is a dead company so not in the new market. Shame too

Contax never was a company. It is a brand name owned by Cark Zeiss. The Name was licensed to Kyochera.
Kyochera is far from being dead it has a market capitalization of $ 17 billion.
They are still a very advanced imaging company and are also a growing telecom company. Smart phones etc.
Carl Zeiss is doing just fine too. EUR 4.24 billion in annual revenues.. up more than a billion from the previous year.

So the companies are very sound and still heavily in the imaging world.
They simply saw little future in MF and stopped making MF gear. Looking at their financial
state it looks like they made a smart move.

One of the main reasons the Contax system did not go to someone else is that Kyocera
sold nearly all of the machining equipment used to Canon.
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theguywitha645d

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #157 on: December 07, 2012, 01:41:55 PM »

I have a D800e and Pentax 645D. At ISO 1600, the Pentax is better, but the D800 goes higher--I have not had a chance to push 645D past 1600. The Pentax files are better generally. The ergonomics of the Pentax wins hands down--the D800 is a bit of a brick (it also feels a little cheap). Video in the Pentax is wanting and so is live view, but I can live without live view, especially since the viewfinder in the MF camera is that much bigger. The D800 is a fine camera, but it is still a 35mm camera. I like my D800, but it doesn't really excite me. So while I do do some great work with my D800, it is the Pentax I prefer. Could a viewer tell the difference between the two, maybe not, but I need to be the first person to please.

YMMV...
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FredBGG

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #158 on: December 07, 2012, 01:50:43 PM »

Three players?

Let's see, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica, Mamiya, Leaf.

But just two makers of MF sensors, Dalsa and TrueSense.


Best regards
Erik

Shusssh.... Don't mention Pentax MF. Less expensive, but in many ways more advanced, also a maker of DSLRs
and now part of a $6.62 billion imaging company.

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FredBGG

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Re: The end of medium format ?
« Reply #159 on: December 07, 2012, 01:52:37 PM »

It's the differences between folk that make life interesting. Same applies to cameras. Life is all the poorer without diversity.

Just imagine if we as photographers were limited to the mainstream, the all singing all dancing D800/5Ds of this world; what a desperately dull place this would be

Those who would dance on the grave of MFD should be careful what they wish for.

 

Problem is people don't understand or to damn stubborn to really understand what that would truly mean to there wallets. You WANT competition and you want more players selling in the market. MF has shrank actually too far already with only 3 players in the field. We need Phase, Hassy and Leica or we are looking at Nikons and Canons at 9k each , because they can.

Pentax ;)

The price of 35mm DSLRs has nothing to do with the tiny market of MFD. There is very strong and healthy competition between the various 35mm brands.
Just look at Canons recent price drop. This price drop has nothing to do with MF prices that are more than 5 times higher for essentially the equivalent IQ.
This is as a result of competition from Nikon and other 35mm DSLR manufacturers.

As far as expensive cameras go both Nikon and Canon have for a long time offered top of the end cameras in both heavier construction at a higher price
and lighter construction at a lower price, but with equivalent IQ. Seems to me that both Nikon and Canon come from a culture of empowering their clients
and keeping entry level costs very very low.

The big three companies often make large investments in other photography companies. Sony just invested over half a billion dollars in Olympus.
If they saw real growth potential in MF they would be shopping....
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 03:27:11 PM by FredBGG »
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