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Author Topic: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF  (Read 11426 times)

hasselbladfan

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Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« on: September 28, 2012, 12:11:44 PM »

Extract from an interview with Stephan Schulz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 12:54:09 PM by hasselbladfan »
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TMARK

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2012, 12:27:02 PM »

Extract from an interview with Stephan Schultz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.

he should add:

". . . and our service department in the USA sucks, which leads many professionals to question our commitment to producing a professional tool."
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MrSmith

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2012, 12:34:30 PM »

How are they going to become market leader? Wait for one of the others to go bust or make their product more 'affordable'?
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hasselbladfan

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2012, 12:39:19 PM »

One of the rumors (before the Photokina) was that the old S2 would be sold below 10k when the new S was introduced.

That would have been a great idea (selling a lot more lenses and binding consumers to their platform). But unfortunately the new S is only an evolution which cannot sustain a half price strategy.

Even Hasselblad is removing the H4D31 from their catalogue rather than selling it for 7-8k.
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Fritzer

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »

My guess would be that Leica has about 2% market share in digital medium format, if that .
Who's making up those numbers ?
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hasselbladfan

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 12:52:59 PM »

My guess would be that Leica has about 2% market share in digital medium format, if that .
Who's making up those numbers ?

Mr. Stephan Schulz, Head of professional Imaging at Leica.

Full article below.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6220714089/photokina-2012-interview-stephan-schulz-of-leica-
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ndevlin

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 12:57:05 PM »

The shere difficulty in obtaining "S" bodies and lenses, coupled with Leica's vigorous dedication to the system, is pretty good corroboration that they are selling well and comprise roughly the market share Stephan cites. 

Leica will, however, have to come up with someone more compellingthan a 30-something MP CCD chip with middling higher ISO performance to keep the market interested.  Their newly public relationship with CMOSIS, and the fact they are essential custom fabricating their own chips now for the M, light a way forward for them for the "S" system as well.

- N.
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Anders_HK

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 01:03:43 PM »

because it is the most advanced system.

BS in context of their minor improvements to S2, while DHW announcing Mod 2 and having been given the rights to further Hy6, the statement seem very odd. Hy6 is the best system current.

S system is mere crop of 645... lenses sharp yes, but so are Rollei. Digital back is more flexible.
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TMARK

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 01:40:00 PM »

BS in context of their minor improvements to S2, while DHW announcing Mod 2 and having been given the rights to further Hy6, the statement seem very odd. Hy6 is the best system current.

S system is mere crop of 645... lenses sharp yes, but so are Rollei. Digital back is more flexible.

The problem with both the Rollei and the S has nothing to do with their cameras, but with sales/service/support.  For the record, the Rollei is in my opinion the best of the best out there.  The S is cool, but the chip size is odd.  I don't care if its a crop from a film format, as are 645 chips on the Rollei (6x6), what I don't like is the 3:2.  I think in New York the only place to get a Rollei is Kurland, which is really consumer boutique.  With Leica, I'm sure you can special order one from any leica dealer, and now that they are opening their boutique stores in NYC and DC (DC?  Really? DC where commercial jobs where an S might be required are hardly ever shot?), availability might be better.  But my experience with their service for my digital M cameras was less than satisfactory.  I always had the feeling that they were overwhelmed. (They were brilliant for my film M cameras). 

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bcooter

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 01:52:22 PM »

The problem with both the Rollei and the S has nothing to do with their cameras, but with sales/service/support.  .......snip




I find all the talk about market share funny.

People that don't know the dow from the S+P can quote apple and Facebooks stock price, pretty much on the hour.

As far as Leica owning 20% of the mfd market, how do they get their numbers?   I've never seen Phase or Hasselblad's or Leica's posted sales numbers and we all hear rumors of "best year ever" and other quotes. who knows?

What I do know is what moves a current or prospective professional to  a new system.   First thing is how many cameras do you need.  With Leica I'd need two, because their repair times are slow.

Then you get into what Paul ask's . . . tethering.  Now i'm not wild about always tethering, but clients are.  They want to see every frame as fast and easy as possible.   As far as I know the Leica's do not tether quickly.

The thing that kind of blows me away is I went to see the S or S2 last week and the Leica Rep said, "computers, I don't know anything about computers".   The Grey perfectly hair styled ceo hobbyist standing at the counter thought that was great and humorous, I thought shit, if Leica's guys don't care about computers I'll never get these images on a screen in a timely matter, which is a shame because the camera if well built, focuses fast, has a nice file and seems well built.  The CEO was obviously the Reps main focus, me I was just a pro that would probably complain if a lens wasn't calibrated and took three weeks to get back.

Also I do use computers and send my own e-mails so obviously my response is computers . . .  I have to know computers.

Anyway . . .

The S2 is expensive but if you use them for a number of years, not too bad, well not "that" expensive until you figure in lens prices.  Then it get's into rarified air.

The thing is for me, when I look at any of the newest backs and mfd cameras, I kind of wonder what I'm gaining over my ghetto contax's and older Phase backs.  Sure a little more detail, a little faster autofocus, maybe a little bigger viewfinder with a prism, but overall since I've shot a billion paid images with the Contax's (and still do) I have to ask myself if dropping 30, 40 or 50 grand for a new system will increase my billings or give me something I just don't have.

And what does Contax have a 2% or 5% market share?  I don't care.

In fact, so many people have asked for cmos and live view on medium format, I've kind of come to a conclusion after owning a bunch of ccd and cmos cameras, that ccd's non aa filtered cameras seem to have a more robust and deeper look.  In fact I think they are less homogenous than the basic Nikon or Canon and that's the goal not to always look like one of the crowd.  BTW:  I'm not talking micro detail, heck I don't care about that as much as the overall look and it just may be the moon and sun have aligned funny, but lately I've had multiple new clients mention images we've shot that are all ccd based, thinking they were shot on  film and thinking they look different.

That's the first time I've heard that from clients, so I guess if I was selling mfd cameras rather than dodge the high iso, live view thing of cmos, I'd push the unique look of ccd's.  

If I had fast, cost effective repairs and service, I would definitely push that.

Then again, I don't sell cameras.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 02:29:18 PM by bcooter »
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lowep

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 02:26:09 PM »

I don't sell cameras

hell cooter with a lucid pitch like the one you just fired off maybe you should?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 02:28:02 PM by lowep »
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Dick Roadnight

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 05:17:38 PM »

Extract from an interview with Stephan Schulz (Leica) :

What is Leica's market share, in medium format digital?

We are roughly at 20%. So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.
Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?
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design_freak

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 05:34:03 PM »

Leica have never made a Medium format digital camera ¿on the nominal 6cm {120 film} definition, nor has anyone else? ¿so they have 20% of nothing?
If you miss it
Right now, Hasselblad H4/H5 and PhaseOne/Mamiya DF can't work with film.....    ::)
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Best regards,
DF

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LKaven

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 06:01:00 PM »

The Leica system is both (i) expensive, and (ii) highly consolidated, which would tend to inflate cash revenues and thus overall market share.

When you buy a Leica MF system, you are committed to buying the lenses from Leica at Leica prices.  There are no legacy or third party accessories.  So to buy into the system in the first place, one is committed to spending at least $30,000-$35,000 just for a system with two lenses. 

Many buyers of MFDB have legacy bodies and lenses, and only update their backs periodically, and sometimes buy pre-owned.

Mr. Rib

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 07:24:09 PM »

Wow, that's some major CEO bullshit. Everyone has been taking lessons from Apple Keynotes I guess :)
And I don't mean the 20% market share which is rather dubious no matter how you look at / manipulate the numbers..
he has the guts to mention that it's THE MOST ADVANCED system? What the hell? I wouldn't mind him elaborating on that...
useless tethering? no live view? No update of the sensor in years which was inferior to many products when it was first itroduced?
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Tim Jones

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2012, 07:58:00 PM »

You guys know that leica makes a converter that lets you use your Hassleblad H system lenses right? Complete with AF.
I tried it and it works great . That right there makes the S way more appealing . But, on the other hand the reason for buying the camera is the magic leica lenses. But, you could get a body and use it. That thing is sexy.
Thanks,
Tim
www.tjphoto.net
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ondebanks

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 08:50:47 PM »

When you buy a Leica MF system, you are committed to buying the lenses from Leica at Leica prices.  There are no legacy or third party accessories.  So to buy into the system in the first place, one is committed to spending at least $30,000-$35,000 just for a system with two lenses. 

Many buyers of MFDB have legacy bodies and lenses, and only update their backs periodically, and sometimes buy pre-owned.

Luke, check out all the "Brand X" lens-to-S2 body adapters online...where "Brand X" includes Hasselblad V, Pentax 67, and best of all, Mamiya 645. And check out the reviews and tests of adapted lenses on the S2, at reddotforum.com.

If I had an S2 I'd primarily use 3rd party lenses on it. Right now, it is the only way to shoot Mamiya 645 lenses on a 3rd-gen (6 micron), low noise Kodak MF CCD, since Phase One missed the boat on that tech and allowed Pentax, Hasselblad and Leica to snap it up.

Ray
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Anders_HK

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 10:52:36 PM »

Does Leica offer upgrade policy?
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FredBGG

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 01:06:52 AM »

Leica:
Quote
We are roughly at 20%.[/b] So at the moment we are behind Hasselblad and PhaseOne but our goal is to become market leader. And with the S system, this will happen, one day for sure because it is the most advanced system. There are still people hesitating, because photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that.


"photographers are a little bit conservative in investing, and I can understand that."

Or maybe smarter and investing elsewhere... lighting, infrastructure, travelling to other markets,  locations etc.

Don't get me wrong... nothing wrong with buying a MFD if you love it, enjoy it and want to put your money there.

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David Eichler

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Re: Leica has 20% market share in digital MF
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 01:09:01 AM »

he should add:

". . . and our service department in the USA sucks, which leads many professionals to question our commitment to producing a professional tool."

Hah. It seems that has been the case for quite some time, well before digital. My recollection is that it was better to obtain warranty service from a local authorized service shop, if you were lucky enough to live where there was one. However, obtaining replacement parts, when needed, was still a hassle at times.
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