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Author Topic: P1 Tethering Issues  (Read 2841 times)

ChristopherBarrett

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P1 Tethering Issues
« on: September 21, 2012, 09:02:57 pm »

I was having massive connection issues with the P65+ and the 5d2 on my MBP OS X.7.4.  Dropped back to C1 Pro 6.4.2 and everything was golden on the three day shoot I just wrapped.  If you're having problems I recommend backtracking.  The last two builds of C1 Pro cause me endless frustrations.

Stupid technology.  Reminds me of when we would get a bad batch of Readyload from Kodak that would refuse to reseat and you'd fog sheet after sheet.

C->B
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DanielStone

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2012, 09:23:40 pm »

One of the reasons why I still use traditional sheet film holders for 4x5-8x10 ;)

I feel your pain, the past few jobs I've been on with a particular photographer, her iq140 tethered to a 2011 17" mbp 4-core has been dropping the connection every 15-20 shots or so, maddening... especially since she shoots fashion kids stuff...

Dan
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Doug Peterson

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2012, 09:48:04 pm »

6.4.3 and 6.4.4 use a new SDK from Canon which supports the newer cameras but still has a good number of quirks/bugs especially in 10.8 and 10.7.5.

6.4.2 uses the older SDK from Canon which does not support the new cameras (1DX/5D3) but which is a more mature SDK from Canon.

More re: 10.7.5 (sure you aren't on 10.7.5??)
https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/1075
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 09:53:41 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2012, 09:52:19 pm »

I feel your pain, the past few jobs I've been on with a particular photographer, her iq140 tethered to a 2011 17" mbp 4-core has been dropping the connection every 15-20 shots or so, maddening... especially since she shoots fashion kids stuff...

This is absolutely, positively - on my honor and reputation - NOT normal, okay or acceptable.

The IQ should be incredibly stable. If it's not there is something specifically wrong that can and should be fixed - bad cable, bad computer, bad firewire port on the laptop, bad software/OS/settings, using old firmware with new software or vice versa or even a bad back (the least likely, though not impossible). Hopefully she purchased it from a dealer that would take reports of such issues as seriously as I would and will work with her to isolate the problem and eliminate it.

I think the forum knows I'm happy to acknowledge/discuss where there is a technical issue or limitation - but the tethering stability of an IQ is not one of them.

FredBGG

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2012, 10:50:40 pm »

I was having massive connection issues with the P65+ and the 5d2 on my MBP OS X.7.4.  Dropped back to C1 Pro 6.4.2 and everything was golden on the three day shoot I just wrapped.  If you're having problems I recommend backtracking.  The last two builds of C1 Pro cause me endless frustrations.

Stupid technology.  Reminds me of when we would get a bad batch of Readyload from Kodak that would refuse to reseat and you'd fog sheet after sheet.

C->B

YUp... why is it that my Coffee grinder RZ always worked (affectionate name for the noisy motor drive), my high milage GX680 always works...

And today's uber MF cameras have problems and need endless support from the dealers.....

Yet I can plug my old Canon 1ds into every firewire computer I have... just works.

P25+ was OK on the Phase One AFD, hit and miss on the DF..... ??????

I did find it was best not to power from firewire.

And yes my cables were good granite digital or better.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 11:02:32 pm by FredBGG »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2012, 11:32:09 pm »

I don't have much experience with the 1Ds Mark 1.

But I can tell you, having been the one on the other end of the phone call many times, the Canon 1Ds mark II was far from free of tethering issues.

As one fun example when OSX 10.5.7 was released the 1Ds II stopped connecting (or worse would connect, capture a frame or two and then disconnect) to both Capture One and Canon EOS utility. That one was Apple's issue - they changed some under-the-hood code that controlled firewire connections. Digital backs and USB dSLRs were not effected. You can imagine the confusion this caused.

Also I've seen more repairs of 1Ds II firewire ports than any other port on any camera. Even with a 90 degree 3rd-party cable and a TetherLock (neither of which should be necessary if they simply designed the camera with tethering as a higher design priority) it would break with alarming frequency. Worse, it wouldn't always stop working entirely, but sometimes would become startlingly intermittent causing novice users of the camera to call with all sorts of kookey explanations as to what was happening ("the camera only connects when there is a female model on set - it's just refusing to connect whenever a male model steps up").

Again, these are all comments on the 1Ds II not the 1Ds.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 11:36:39 pm by Doug Peterson »
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FredBGG

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2012, 11:51:44 pm »

I've used all three I II II no problems, but I work with Windows. If I tether in studio I want it to be to a
Raid level 5 workstation (internal raid level 5) travel rack mount.

Tethering to a single hard drive is a gamble.
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TMARK

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2012, 11:59:10 pm »

Gaf Tape the cables in a loop.  No pressure on the port.  I find Gaffers tape can fix lots of problems.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2012, 12:43:55 am »

I've used all three I II II no problems, but I work with Windows. If I tether in studio I want it to be to a
Raid level 5 workstation (internal raid level 5) travel rack mount.

Tethering to a single hard drive is a gamble.

Agreed. Though I'd much rather have a solution based on software sync'ing than hardware raid.

Raid of any flavor won't protect you from data lose caused by user error or software error.

For instance if you or your-tech accidentally delete a file, overwrite/replace a file, overwrite/replace a folder (devastating), reset/screw-up adjustments to a large number of raw files (e.g. apple-A followed by apple-R will reset all adjustments to all images in a folder C1), or otherwise muck things up. In a RAID these changes are committed to all drives in the RAID at the same time. It's easy to think that none of these things can happen to you if you are careful/smart but trust me I've seen it happen to some guys that I respect very highly for their intelligence and fastidiousness.

Likewise all drives are identically and instantly affected if there is an unexpected software issue like a corrupt LR catalog because LR crashes at the wrong time (not common, but by no means impossible), the permissions of the folder you're using get mixed up (I'm thinking here of OSX, but of course OS based issues can happen on any platform), or files are corrupted because of a bad HD controller, or damaged/rewritten as a result of a malicious virus.

Not to mention the RAID controller itself can die - in theory you can swap in another RAID controller (or depending on the box/setup you can take the drives themselves and transfer them to another identical RAID enclosure) and continue the RAID set unaffected but this is not something you'd want to do in the middle of a shoot or on a delivery deadline.

In my experience in tech support I can recall around a dozen instances of someone calling in panic because of images or work lost because of user error or software error. I can only recall two instances of someone calling because their hard drive died mid-shoot. That means 85% of the people I've worked with regarding data loss would not have been helped one iota by having RAID 5.

Alternatively one can set up various means of sync'ing your shoot/data from one drive to another drive (or to a server). Programs like Carbon Copy Cloaner, Sync X, and I'm sure many similar programs for Windows, can be told to keep two folders sync'd together. If set to do this manually at appropriate junctions of the shoot (e.g. talent changes, between lighting sets etc) this does not slow down the system, and it provides just enough delay from real-time that most (though of course not all) such user/software errors can be detected before they are sync'd to the backup. In addition, space allowing, the sync software can be set to never delete or overwrite files on the backup, so even if you selected your entire master shoot folder and deleted them all, then emptied the trash, then sync'd your shoot to the backup you would find that the backup saved you. The function can be assigned to a system shortcut key so that you don't even need to switch to the sync program to initiate a sync. Anytime there is a break of any length you can tap the key and the sync will occur in the background, and if you happen to still be sync'ing when the shooting resumes the hit on speed is barely noticeable (assuming fast drives on fast protocols).

For really high importance jobs I've tech'd I've used three drives: Master, Primary Backup, Secondary Backup. I sync changes on the master to the primary, then at a break I put the primary backup in a pelican away from the action and start sync'ing to the secondary backup. Then at the next break I swap the backups again so that the secondary backup is in a pelican away from the action. In case of really big disasters (sudden roof leak in the building, sprinklers go off, massive power surge caused by someone accidentally ramming something large and metal into something electrical, theft, a large heavy thing falling on the computer set etc) the worst I could lose would be up to the last break. This also creates a larger time buffer such that in case any user/software error comes into play I have much more time to realize it before it is sync'd to both backups.

Three drives is an extreme measure of course, but like you I've been on jobs for which the stakes of losing even a single image were very high (on the other side of the FW cable of course :-). I still remember a certain aged actor having a hard time walking up a few steps onto the photo set and giving us only a few minutes which had been carefully carved from between takes of two scenes of the movie being filmed - if those images were lost the political cost of asking for him to come back would have been enormous. I had worked with many actors before, many of whom thought (and wanted everyone else to think) they didn't have enough time in the day to give you even one more minute - but this was the first time I saw an actor whose health/age was so frail that his waking/energetic hours of the day had to be as carefully portioned as possible in order to allow him to still work on a feature film.

I've used all three I II II no problems, but I work with Windows. If I tether in studio I want it to be to a

This probably highlights one of the eternal frustrations of single-user evaluations of equipment reliability. The vast majority of users of any pro system (any brand) have nearly no problems*. The systems that have specific issues have a much higher % of issues, but still a minority of total users experience them. [warning the following numbers are wild guesses based on five years of tech support for Capture One...] So for instance a normal rate of failure on a camera port might be 5 failure per 1000 units per year. The 1DsII port was well known (at least amongst us tech support folk) for higher-than-average failures, but even if it was 4 times more common (20 failures per 1000 units per year) that means roughly 96% of people who used a 1Ds II for two years did not experience any issues. If you ask any given single-user photographer what they thought of the tethering stability of a 1Ds II they'd very likely tell you they've had no issues.

This is where it can be very helpful to get advice on reliability from your local rental house (bearing in mind they are self interested to tell you everything they rent works great), an experienced digital tech (bearing in mind they are self interested to tell you every problem ever so you feel compelled to use them to avoid such problems), a reputable dealer (bearing in mind they are self interested to tell you their wares work great), or a forum like this one (bearing in mind the most problems will be reported for cameras which are used most often e.g. the 5DII).

*Mind you on the forums it always seems higher because there isn't much use posting "hey, I'm using a XYZ camera with XYZ software/OS/settings and had a boring shoot today where everything worked perfectly".

MrSmith

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2012, 02:44:11 am »

This is what I like about C1 not tethering with the 5dIII, using eos utility to trigger the camera means I can have a copy of the file on the card in camera.
I wish C1 would do this. (when tehering in 10.8 is fixed)
Doesn't mean you don't periodically back up the session but if you forget theres always another copy.
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bcooter

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2012, 04:32:36 am »

Like Doug,  I find 95% of all tethering issues user error.

Not so much lack of knowing the basics of the software, but lack of preparation, testing and equipment/software selection.

We always take every camera and lens and polish the contacts.  Not clean, not a quick brush over put really polish them like a jewel.  

Then we check all firewire cables, and have a new backup that is identical ready to go.

Everything gets charged and reliable batteries, either new or tested.

Like T-Mark We tape all cords into the computers and drives.  FW 400 could be tight or loose depending on the cord and device, fw 800 (the ones that are pure plastic) are a nightmare.

The most important thing we do is we test, test and test.

With a newer software or system or any changes, when time permits we will connect a camera to a computer, then to a tripod and during the day do the worst case scenario test.

Shoot and unplug the cord, let the batteries run down, do background tasks like processing while we shoot, you know, things that happen on a busy set.

Our DIT station is very large and holds two powerbooks, backup batteries and drives, one computer setup for the stills, one for the REDS, though we keep an older tripod based system setup on standby.



We also have one camera charged, lens on and formatted card, ready to shoot untethered if anything goes down or gets slow.

For our Phase backs we use C-1, though not the latest 6.4.4 version.   I find this version buggy and slow even in processing and adjustments, though we never, ever run the latest software in any version, at least on set.

We also don't use the latest cameras and backs. MFD is a p30+ and P21+ on contax bodies, 35mm is the 1ds3's because I like the look of skin tones, love the tether lock system on the 3's.

Best is we know our equipment inside and out.   That makes a huge difference if there are any issues.

For tethering the Canons, we use EOS utility and Adobe's bridge for organization and reviews.   I like C-1 for the DB's but for the Canons EOS utility may look clunky but for us it's bulletproof and makes a large preview as you shoot and bridge is a fast easy way to check focus and rate files on the fly.

One other thing we never use the capture computers for other tasks.  All the drives are virtually clean, the computers set up for capture, backup, synchronization and image management ONLY.

Bottom line is just that, the bottom line.   I can't imagine spending huge money on cameras and computers and walk out on set untested and it usually takes a year before any manufacturer gets all the data in from cameras, software, computer platforms, varied use, to really fine tune their product so it's reliable.

With the pressure of quality and volume on set, gone are the days of beta testing for a camera, computer of software provider (sponsored or not).   Today everything must work reliably and a promise of a discount camera or back won't ever make up for the potential loss of revenue of a problematic project.

The upside with older equipment is the newer cameras have not changed the final result that much, at least not to a degree that you are behind by using one or two generations back.

I see it with our still and motion setups and looking back at the past the only issues I've ever had is with brand new.

Our Phase backs may be old, but no client complains and their bullet proof.  Our 1ds3's may be slightly slower than the newest dslrs, but they work and work and work.

Our Red 1's I use 90% of the time compared to the Scarlet.  They're heavier a little less mobile, but they always work and set up is a breeze.  

I own a lot of cameras, sometimes get the bug for something new, but until I just have to move up, we just keep on running what we know works.

We hear it all the time, "what will I do when I can't go to firewire or my software won't run on super duper lion".  Well to me that's virtually a non issue.

Lightly used, or refurbished computers that run a few generations older software and equipment are always out there, for at least a decade and no client ever walks over and says, "is that a thunderbolt capable machine?".

So in other words, I just don't worry about it.

Nothing is a buzz kill on set like hearing those dreaded words, "hold on, we have to change or reboot at ______".



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 05:43:36 am by bcooter »
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FredBGG

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2012, 02:50:52 pm »

Not to mention the RAID controller itself can die - in theory you can swap in another RAID controller (or depending on the box/setup you can take the drives themselves and transfer them to another identical RAID enclosure) and continue the RAID set unaffected but this is not something you'd want to do in the middle of a shoot or on a delivery deadline.

I have NEVER had a Raid controller card go bad, but I do not ever use external raid boxes as the primary storage.

The computer is always on a high quality surge protector and whenever possible on a different circuit to the strobes.

I never do any juggling around of hard drives.

I also have a custom secondary backup that is a mirrored raid in a battery powered enclosure and connected to the main computer with an optical connection.
This gives me a secondary backup that is TOTALLY isolated from the power grid.

The whole shebang is run with enterprise level backup software. Everything is written incrementally. No files can be over written.
All copied files are copied and verified.

My digital tech is "a robot". I prefer to leave that to machines. I have an assistant over look it, but mainly as a second eye looking at the images.

Final archival backup is to Raid level 5 at two different locations and a cloud backup.
That said I do not offer backup services to my clients.

Most of my favorite work is shot on film so I have an analogue back up too.

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Ed Taylor

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 10:36:40 am »

BC,

Can you tell me what case that is holding the two MBPs?

Thanks,

Ed Taylor
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Ed Taylor
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bcooter

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 02:41:20 pm »

BC,

Can you tell me what case that is holding the two MBPs?

Thanks,

Ed Taylor

http://www.maxxdigital.com/dit-station-237.html


It has custom metal die cut inserts and ours has  fans, aps, Red Rocket, backup drives, and you can configure any way you want with output plugs for fw, TB, hdmi, usb, with input slots for CF, SD, RED SSD device.

It has it's own stand that fits in a separate case.  Depending on project, we attach one 27" on a stand mount on the right side for stills and one 24" hdmi monitor on the left for the RED.

Traveled just about everywhere with it and only issue has been JAL at Narita held the aps batteries.   Other than that has gone to europe and asia and across the U.S. without issue.

BTW:  I paid retail so no affiliation.

IMO

BC

P.S.   This year for a European swing through 4 countries we ran a limited crew and I didn't want to lug it along, so we disassembled most of the major bits and put them in smaller cases.

In the end, should have just left it alone, because on set time would have been greatly reduced.  It wasn't cheap, with computers and drives cost more than our first RED, but it's stable well built and works.

P.S. 2  A few years ago I made our own one laptop station, somewhat similar (with less refinement).  It works and we still use it today as a backup, but Max station really is a step above any other solution I've seen.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2012, 03:21:40 pm by bcooter »
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Ed Taylor

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Re: P1 Tethering Issues
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 07:43:52 pm »

BC,

Thanks for the detailed reply!

A serious piece of kit. I tend to think solutions like that, while expensive, make things go much smoother.

Thanks.

Ed
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Best Regards,

Ed Taylor
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