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Author Topic: High resolution Canon 3D X?  (Read 4151 times)

hasselbladfan

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High resolution Canon 3D X?
« on: September 09, 2012, 05:21:28 pm »

Lots of rumors pre-Photokina of a new 3D X.

Anybody having some insights?
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Wayne Fox

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 02:53:28 am »

Yes, lots of rumors about a 46 mp Canon 3d or 3dx

You would think they would avoid the 3D moniker for a still camera ... guess we'll know soon.
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hasselbladfan

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 04:21:24 am »

Anything confidential from a Canon rep?
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Ellis Vener

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 03:28:26 pm »

Anything confidential from a Canon rep?

If a Canon (or nikon, etc.) rep had anything to say that was "confidential" about unannounced products , if he or she valued their job they wouldn't be saying anything would they? And if they are talking to people outside of Canon, those outsiders would have  signed a binding Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) before being told anything.
 
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hasselbladfan

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 03:48:57 pm »

Elis,

I agree with this theory.

But in reality we know, some people cannot keep secrets and if they tell you "off-the-record" or "please keep it between us", leaks happen and I am sure that if something leaks one week before the Photokina, it will not harm their (Canon or Nikon) business.

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Wayne Fox

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 05:27:35 pm »

Elis,

I agree with this theory.

But in reality we know, some people cannot keep secrets and if they tell you "off-the-record" or "please keep it between us", leaks happen and I am sure that if something leaks one week before the Photokina, it will not harm their (Canon or Nikon) business.


And we also know Nikon seems to have mastered "leaking" to their advantage ... the d800 was pretty well specced out by the rumor sites a long time before it was "announced", and the long rumored d600 suddenly seems to have some serious movement on the rumor sites ... it will surprise no one if it is announced.

Canon on the other hand tends to try and keep things tight, but then they also tend to announce stuff long before it ships.  So a 46-54 mp Canon being announced next week may certainly happen but it probably won't ship for 6 months or more ... just sort of how Canon seems to do stuff.

I will say that when visiting with an an associate I've known for many years and who moved from Kodak to Canon several years ago (smart move), i did ask him point blank out of the blue in the middle of our non related conversation, and he stammered a little ... took him by surprise.  His reaction was as though he was trying to gracefully disguise the fact that he knew something and couldn't say ...

Our stores Canon rep has been saying for some time that those moving from Canon to Nikon will be sorry ... so he seems to think something else is coming, but then he probably knows nothing and is making assumptions like everyone else.

Of course, going to 46mp may sound great, but unless Canon can get the dynamic range up and unless all the lens revisions they've been doing will actually hold up to the sensor, it may not translate to any improvement over image quality.  The d800 really needs great glass to show what it's capable of, and to me the biggest advantage of the d800 is the dynamic range, not the resolution. A high MP canon will have the same issues.
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hasselbladfan

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2012, 02:04:32 am »

Agree that any improvement in DR is more beneficial ffor IQ than higher resolution.

But some room there allows you to crop more or print larger. So, I wouldn't say no to a 3D.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2012, 02:40:41 am »

And we also know Nikon seems to have mastered "leaking" to their advantage ... the d800 was pretty well specced out by the rumor sites a long time before it was "announced", and the long rumored d600 suddenly seems to have some serious movement on the rumor sites ... it will surprise no one if it is announced.

Canon on the other hand tends to try and keep things tight, but then they also tend to announce stuff long before it ships.  So a 46-54 mp Canon being announced next week may certainly happen but it probably won't ship for 6 months or more ... just sort of how Canon seems to do stuff.

Or... Canon is very smart...

They do not have anything near availability above 40MP but are spreading rumors of upcoming products to keep people on board? :-)

Frankly, the 5DIII is 2+ stops DR behind at 2/3 the resoluton of the D800, what are the odds that Canon could release a decent 46 mp sensors just a few months later?

Cheers,
Bernard

francois

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2012, 02:59:45 am »


Frankly, the 5DIII is 2+ stops DR behind at 2/3 the resoluton of the D800,

And $500 more expensive!
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Francois

Keith Reeder

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2012, 05:00:41 am »

And faster, and more versatile, and more responsive, and better at hgh ISO...
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Keith Reeder
Blyth, NE England

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 05:01:57 am »

Or... Canon is very smart...

They do not have anything near availability above 40MP but are spreading rumors of upcoming products to keep people on board? :-)

Frankly, the 5DIII is 2+ stops DR behind at 2/3 the resoluton of the D800, what are the odds that Canon could release a decent 46 mp sensors just a few months later?

Cheers,
Bernard


Bernard,

There is a pattern of Canon's full-frame sensors eventually matching the pixel density of their previous cropped formats. The 1Ds2 approximately matched the pixel density of the early 6mp D60. The 1Ds3 and 5D2 approximately matched the pixel densities of the 8mp 20D and 30D.

At the time Canon released the 5D3, the 46mp model, which would have matched the pixel densities of the 7D and 60D, wasn't ready, so it was a case of either not releasing any upgrade at all, thus disappointing Canon customers and/or losing even more customers to Nikon whom Canon knew would soon be releasing a 36mp full-frame, or releasing a modest upgrade to the 5D2, which was the best they could do at the time.

However, as a result of the furore and enormous, obsessive interest shown on the internet, comparing the 5D3 with the D800, and the huge number of Canon fans who seemed to believe that Canon had 'lost it' and simply no longer had the technology to compete with Nikon, the Canon board had a crisis meeting and decided to fast-track the development of the 46mp full-frame which had been cruising along in their reasearch and development labs for a number of years.

Just using my imagination. ;D

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Paul2660

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 11:59:01 am »

Keith, opinions vary on your good points.   I looked at the two from a landscape point of view and a Canon Shooter since 2002.  I tried to make the 5D MKIII work, but found the files too much like the 5D MKII in that the same issues carried over.  Here are some talking points to consider.

Faster, I would tend to agree, the 5D MKIII is considerably faster, at 6 FPS (I think I have that right) vs the 3 the D800 can pull in raw mode.  Not to mention the fact that you will hit the buffer pretty fast in continuous mode.  I don't think the D800 gets 5 FPS even with the grip and in jpg mode as Nikon claims. 

More responsive,  Not sure on that, as to me the controls on both bodies are well placed (expect the zooms I still like them as where the 5D MKII had them on the right side).  Both cameras seem pretty equal here.  No shutter lag, quick and accurate AF, 5D MKIII's AF is amazing in low light, however I find the D800 can get the job done.  I am not using it in a AI servo mode or in action photography however.

Better High ISO,  I was not impressed at all with the 5D MKIII's high iso performance.  I quickly compared it to my 5D MKII and really just didn't see too much difference in the iso 800 to 6400 range.  I just don't shoot any higher and the 5D MKIII may do better above 6400.  What concerned me was the fact that the 5d MKIII still showed the same banding, and noise issues that every Canon I have used did.  Blue red noise in the shadows and banding.  In all the higher iso's and even the shadows of iso 100.  Here the D800 to me is a much better soluiton.  As Wayne pointed out the DR of the D800 is the real champion, not the extra resolution.  I would just as happy with 20mp or 36mp but the Dynamic range is really amazing.  Also the D800 seems to have gotten a bad name on high iso.   I find it very useable up to iso 3200.  When comparisons are mode between the D800 and others, one has to either down rez the D800 file or uprez the other camera.  This became very clear with the D4 vs D800.  To the two cameras are very close up to even iso 4000.  After that sure the D4 begins to show better results.  If you take the D800 file and down rez it to the size of the D4 at 16mp then you see that the two files are very close indeed in relation to noise. 

More versatile. Again to me this is a draw or I give the edge to Nikon.  The ability to shoot in DX, FX and two other formats is great.  In DX mode and still get 15mp to me is an excellent solution.  Canon on the other hand offers the 3 raw sizes and I miss not having medium raw for night shooting.  I don't use the video features but it does seem from what I have read the Canon 5D MKIII is more video friendly.   Live view on Canon is to me easier to figure out, but once you start working with Nikon's version on the D800 you can see it's merits also.  I will say now that for daylight shooting I prefer Nikon's method, but for night work, Nikon's solution is terrible.  You can't work with it very well as the noise is not buffered out as well. 

I guess it all boils down to one own shooting style.  But what made me switch overnight was the Dynamic Range with Nikon and Lack of improvement to Canon's with the 5D MKIII.

Paul

 
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Paul Caldwell
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 05:58:23 pm »

what are the odds that Canon could release a decent 46 mp sensors just a few months later?

46 = 18 mp /canon aps-c tech like 7D/ * ( 1.6 * 1.6 /canon aps-c crop/ )... so I 'd assume they can expose silicone wafer for their proven aps-c layout to get a FF sensor from several exposures...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 06:13:18 pm »

46 = 18 mp /canon aps-c tech like 7D/ * ( 1.6 * 1.6 /canon aps-c crop/ )... so I 'd assume they can expose silicone wafer for their proven aps-c layout to get a FF sensor from several exposures...

Exactly, the 7D sensor is now far behind along the important metrics, starting with DR.

Cheers,
Bernard

marcmccalmont

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 06:14:03 pm »

Standing at Bryce Canyon Overlook the other day, 50% of the people had point & shoots, iPhones etc. 50% had dslr's. Of the dslr's 90% were entry level Canons. I think their market is casual shooters/vacationers and it appears they have that market cornered so why worry about IQ.
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

Chris Pollock

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 07:45:57 am »

Standing at Bryce Canyon Overlook the other day, 50% of the people had point & shoots, iPhones etc. 50% had dslr's. Of the dslr's 90% were entry level Canons. I think their market is casual shooters/vacationers and it appears they have that market cornered so why worry about IQ.
A few reasons come to mind:

I expect the profit on high end cameras is a lot healthier than on the entry level ones.

I imagine that the people who buy entry level cameras don't spend much on quality optics. If Canon want to sell their expensive (and presumably profitable) L lenses they need good bodies to put them on.

If Canon fail to keep up at the high end the brand's reputation will suffer. I doubt it would help Canon's bottom line if they became known as the brand for people who can't afford a good camera.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 02:33:48 pm »

Or... Canon is very smart...

They do not have anything near availability above 40MP but are spreading rumors of upcoming products to keep people on board? :-)

Frankly, the 5DIII is 2+ stops DR behind at 2/3 the resoluton of the D800, what are the odds that Canon could release a decent 46 mp sensors just a few months later?

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course you are assuming canon didn't start working on a higher res sensor until NIkon shipped the d800 ... do you think they haven't been working on those for quite some time?  They announced a 120mp sensor a long time ago, so their R&D has been doing something. They have been aggressively upgrading their optic line for lenses that hold up fine to the 5D Mark2 and 3.  It also isn't just about the sensor, but means much more robust processing, and a new body sytle.

Whether or not they can improve the dynamic range or not remains to be seen, but even if it doesn't match the d800 at 46 mp it will be a great camera for those who shoot Canon.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: High resolution Canon 3D X?
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 11:23:39 pm »

Of course you are assuming canon didn't start working on a higher res sensor until NIkon shipped the d800 ... do you think they haven't been working on those for quite some time?  They announced a 120mp sensor a long time ago, so their R&D has been doing something. They have been aggressively upgrading their optic line for lenses that hold up fine to the 5D Mark2 and 3.  It also isn't just about the sensor, but means much more robust processing, and a new body sytle.

No, I am not assuming that.

Resolution in itself represents little challenge. The difficulty is to optimize a wide set of metrics, DR being by far the most important one. Or so have we been told by high end MFDB shooters for years.

Sensor technology tends to progress in successive and incremental phases. I just don't buy the possibility that Canon would not want 5DIII users to benefit in April 2012 from breakthrough DR enhancements they would be able to suddenly deliver a in a higher resolution sensor in September 2012.

That is simply not how the consumer electronics R&D works here in Japan. It would also piss off their 5DIII customers big time.

Won't happen. Zero chance for a real product.

Of course they could do another paper launch like the one they did for the 1DX, with more than 10 months between announcement and availability,... but does that real help with customers?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 11:56:48 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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