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Author Topic: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?  (Read 5337 times)

hasselbladfan

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CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« on: September 05, 2012, 04:14:40 am »

Never understood very well if there are significant differences (pros / cons) between both sensor types, or is it at the end not relevant?
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Paul2660

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 06:49:23 am »

A few  things I can think of, but I am sure there are a lot more.

1.  Signal noise,  CMOS seems to have a much better way of handling noise at high gain settings.  I know of no CCD back that handles iso's much higher                 
     than 800 without a good bit of noise.  Phase One's P45+ does an excellent job of long exposures up to 1 had our but these are at base iso of 50.

2.  Live View.  So far I have yet to see any CCD medium format back with a workable live view solution.  I realize Phase and Leaf have that as an option
     but it's not very practical.  Even if you use ND filters to help keep the light down, the refresh rate is very slow and the whole process is very
     tedious. 

3.  Speed, all the 10 FPS cameras from Canon or Nikon use CMOS. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 07:14:04 am »

Hi,

From what I read, my understanding is that:

1) Readout is different. CCD shifts the charge from pixel to pixel, CMOS reads voltage from cell directly. This makes correlated double sampling possible, a technique used my most CMOS vendors. One of the reasons CMOS has less readout noise. (It essentially means that voltage is measured after sensor reset and after exposure, so noise from reset can be eliminated.)

2) CMOS needs more on chip electronics. Each sensel contains several transistors so the chip "estate" is split between sensels and readout electronics.

3) CMOS can integrate more electronics on chip. Sony EXMOR does for instance analog digital conversion on chip using thousands of ADCs. CCD will have off chip pre amps and ADC.

To sum up, CCD has somewhat advantage in that it has better utilization of chip area for collecting electrons (each electron corresponding to a photon). That advantage is quite small. Microlenses on CMOS will improve fill factor but will not help full well capacity. CMOS can have much lower readout noise. Also, CMOS can have much faster readout.

It seems that readout noise on CCD is about a dozen electron charges while CMOS can reach 2-3 electron charges of noise. As the full well capacity is reduced only 30% (or so?) CMOS will have an advantage in DR (which is FWC divided by noise). CCD may have a very small advantage in shot noise as chip area is better utilized.

The major difference may be that CCD is old technology. It seems that CMOS is preferred mostly at least for cameras, but no one makes CMOS sensors for cameras in large sizes. CMOS is said to be a more complex technology than CCD and it may that large size CMOS sensor fabrication in small series would not be profitable.

Best regards
Erik

Never understood very well if there are significant differences (pros / cons) between both sensor types, or is it at the end not relevant?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 12:19:56 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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hasselbladfan

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2012, 01:56:36 pm »

So, there seem to be no CCD advantage, only disadvantages vs CMOS.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2012, 08:17:14 pm »

So, there seem to be no CCD advantage, only disadvantages vs CMOS.

CCDs have at least one obvious advantage over CMOS, they are commercially available today in larger sensor sizes than CMOS.

Cheers,
Bernard

hasselbladfan

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 06:27:24 pm »

Who knows, maybe H has found the holy grail (see their press invitation)


Here is a copy of a press invitation from Hasselblad :

"In 2002 at photokina Hasselblad launched the revolutionary H System that changed and shaped the medium format market of the new millennium. Embraced by professional and amateur photographers around the world, it is still the unsurpassed standard for craftsmanship and ultimate image quality.

In 2012, 10 years later, our commitment to innovation, evolution and expanding to new horizons is as uncompromising as it has always been in the century-long history of Hasselblad.

We are pleased to invite you to the Hasselblad Press Conference at photokina 2012, which will take place Tuesday, September 18th 2012, 14.00 - 15.00 at Koelnmesse, Kristallsaal Sektion 3, Entrance West."
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donkittle

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 02:18:11 pm »

I met a guy who works for Dalsa a few weeks ago.  He approached me as I was shooting a street artist with a Mamiya camera and digital back.  I spouted off about my love affair with my old Aptus-II 5 back over my new Nikon bodies.  He remarked Dalsa's 6 year old sensor is so much better because of photogates instead of photos cells.  Turns out both CCD and CMOS can use photo gates, but I think Dalsa is the only 'large' manufacturer that does.

I was just stuck at the Vatican with my back, though, and the noise at 200 ISO is terrible!  I got some good shots, but shooting 1/8 of a second with a 35mm lens is very stressful...  :)
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Jim2

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2012, 09:48:35 am »

Is it true that some pocket cameras use a CCD sensor and managed to offer live view?
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bjanes

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2012, 10:06:11 am »

He remarked Dalsa's 6 year old sensor is so much better because of photogates instead of photos cells.  Turns out both CCD and CMOS can use photo gates, but I think Dalsa is the only 'large' manufacturer that does.

OK, but can you (or someone else with physics expertise) explain the difference between photogates and photo cells, or is this just advertising hype?

Regards,

Bill
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2012, 11:04:40 am »

Hi,

Yes, but there are different readout strategies for CCD. It seems that the one chosen for MFDBs doesn't work very well with live view.

In general I would assume that one or the other technology may have advantages in some application areas. I guess that vendors choose the technology that is most feasible with regard to cost and performance.

Best regards
Erik






Is it true that some pocket cameras use a CCD sensor and managed to offer live view?
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donkittle

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2012, 06:09:33 pm »

Bill, Dalsa published a paper on some differences - if you good "photogate dalsa" you should find it.  I'm not really able to summarize adequately.  I also take it with a bit of a grain of salt at it seems like they'll favour a technology that they've chosen.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2012, 07:27:36 pm »

Yes, but there are different readout strategies for CCD. It seems that the one chosen for MFDBs doesn't work very well with live view.

I think that a major difference is that CCD read-out is destructive, the charge is off-loaded from the sensor array in a firebrigade bucketwise fashion leaving nothing useful behind, while CMOS devices can be read out numerous times without really affecting the original signal.

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: CCD or CMOS? Any advantages?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 01:02:47 am »

Hi,

That's right, but the old CCD sensors for compact cameras had live view and could record motion images and MF-digital cannot. There are inter line transfer CCDs, frame transfer CCDs and full frame CCDs. I guess that MFD uses the full frame strategy.

My understanding is that "frame transfer" CCDs have a buffer of same size as the photo sensing device acting as a buffer. Interline CCDs have each second line acting as a buffer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-coupled_device

Best regards
Erik


I think that a major difference is that CCD read-out is destructive, the charge is off-loaded from the sensor array in a firebrigade bucketwise fashion leaving nothing useful behind, while CMOS devices can be read out numerous times without really affecting the original signal.

Cheers,
Bart
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